2020 league

Big Jim

Well-Known Member
HQ keep flogging the Rules series, bigging it up and pushing it massively. Most have lost interest, especially in Australia.

If they’d marketed the Inter Provincials with half the effort, they’d still be going too. Instead, they did nothing.
Yet they stubbornly refuse other sports the ability to use the facilities that could be good cash earners!
 

Peter grimes

Well-Known Member
I do think that compensation to clubs and counties is something that is worth considering, when you think about all the time and money that has been spent developing these players.
It’s not worth considering for long.

The Aussie clubs are offering an employment contract that is all.

Think about how as a club you would go about getting compensation if the guy stopped playing for his club to take up a job as a teacher, engineer, programmer etc etc in Australia?

There isn’t such a mechanism and there isn’t going to be one. Aussie rules is no different
 

thesword

New Member
Great point, the emigration to Australia over the years has ravaged clubs and counties, so compensation for the fact that a player choses to leave for employment in a professional sport similar to the one they play in Ireland is nonsensical.

Also agree with the point that introducing the advanced mark will provide Australian clubs an easier measure to a players capabilities of switching codes as it plays such a pivotal role in their game.
 

Dylan53

Member
No McShane for Tyrone. MacNiallais opting out of Donegal for 2020. It's all setting up well for Armagh to make a real run at an Ulster Championship
 

Patrick-Armagh

Well-Known Member
Great point, the emigration to Australia over the years has ravaged clubs and counties, so compensation for the fact that a player choses to leave for employment in a professional sport similar to the one they play in Ireland is nonsensical.

Also agree with the point that introducing the advanced mark will provide Australian clubs an easier measure to a players capabilities of switching codes as it plays such a pivotal role in their game.
I think on a basic level, yes these players are leaving Ireland to go to Australia for employment. But of course we know that there is more to it than that. Gaelic football at county and at senior club level in a lot of counties is almost professional in it's approach. So the Australian clubs know they are getting players who are well conditioned, well coached and highly skilled. While there is nothing to stop this from happening, the GAA should be looking to come to sort of agreement with the AFL over this. I have zero problem with players going to Australia to play Aussie Rules. It's just highly irritating that AFL clubs can come in and cherry pick our best youngsters, as they know they are here, and there's no compensation to the clubs and counties that have put in the effort to make these players such potential assets to teams down under.

No McShane for Tyrone. MacNiallais opting out of Donegal for 2020. It's all setting up well for Armagh to make a real run at an Ulster Championship
Add in Matty Donnelly missing from Tyrone and they will be massively weakened up front if McShane does go. Saw Donnelly in a coffee shop the other day, wearing his Trillick gear. Was in a pair of shorts and had a massive scar down the back of his left leg where he tore his hamstring and had surgery.

Donegal are no doubt favourites for Ulster, even without MacNiallais. But we should definitely be looking to have a real go at Ulster this season. Derry away is going to be a real test. Rory Gallagher seems to be able to motivate teams against us, like nobody else. Derry will really fancy their chances against us in Celtic Park.
 

Peter grimes

Well-Known Member
I think on a basic level, yes these players are leaving Ireland to go to Australia for employment. But of course we know that there is more to it than that. Gaelic football at county and at senior club level in a lot of counties is almost professional in it's approach. So the Australian clubs know they are getting players who are well conditioned, well coached and highly skilled. While there is nothing to stop this from happening, the GAA should be looking to come to sort of agreement with the AFL over this. I have zero problem with players going to Australia to play Aussie Rules. It's just highly irritating that AFL clubs can come in and cherry pick our best youngsters, as they know they are here, and there's no compensation to the clubs and counties that have put in the effort to make these players such potential assets to teams down under.

I think that is a bit exaggerated. The number of players from Ireland remains small. The level of success is low (as the level of success of Aussie kids trying out is also low - that’s the way elite sport works). Success to date has been boys that have went young, persevered through a long apprenticeship to build up their fitness and skill level. They tend to tall lean forwards to become defenders or ruckmen in Australia as they don’t have the oval ball skills to play as a forward over there.

I think you exaggerate the level and relevance of a GAA player’s fitness and skill level.

I cannot see what would incentivise AFL to sign up to an agreement to curtail their Irish recruitment or to compensate an amateur club in a different sport in a different country for a player volunteering to cease to play for them.

The compensation debate is a complete red herring
 

gael_force_orchard

Well-Known Member
Lot of talk about winning Ulster with Donegal and Tyrone missing a lot of players. We have a league to try and get promoted from first or at the very least maintain Div 2 status. Not worried about Mc Kenna cup, good fitness and ring rust off is all that's necessary there. But let's not look past Derry. One game at a time and all that. Celtic park is not an easy venue.
 

Patrick-Armagh

Well-Known Member
I think that is a bit exaggerated. The number of players from Ireland remains small. The level of success is low (as the level of success of Aussie kids trying out is also low - that’s the way elite sport works). Success to date has been boys that have went young, persevered through a long apprenticeship to build up their fitness and skill level. They tend to tall lean forwards to become defenders or ruckmen in Australia as they don’t have the oval ball skills to play as a forward over there.

I think you exaggerate the level and relevance of a GAA player’s fitness and skill level.

I cannot see what would incentivise AFL to sign up to an agreement to curtail their Irish recruitment or to compensate an amateur club in a different sport in a different country for a player volunteering to cease to play for them.

The compensation debate is a complete red herring
But they are able to cherry pick the best talent. They are doing that very thing. It's hardly a controversial or inaccurate statement. The numbers maybe relatively small - three in 2019, six in 2018, one in 2017, four in 2016, four 2015, but more have stayed out there than come back, and many are from counties that can't afford to be losing their best young players. I'm not against players leaving, if they get the chance they should go and develop themselves, their horizons and make a career for themselves if they are good enough. I would love to have if I'd been anywhere good enough. But it does leave a slight sour taste in the mouth, not that the player is leaving, but that a team from the other side of the world can walk in and say, "we've got this now, thanks for all your effort."

How is it exaggerating their fitness or skill level? That's what's making them stand out and making them attractive prospects. They are hardly signing Conor McKenna, Conor Glass, Mark O'Connor or anyone else cause they don't think they have serious levels of fitness, speed and skill which they think they can adapt to Aussie Rules.

In your opinion it's a red herring. The question is being asked what can the GAA do about? If your answer is nothing, then I think you're being deliberately obtuse to the question and the issue. I'm sure that the GAA have said "we can't stop you and we can't compete with you being able to offer professional contracts, but since we are doing much of the leg work here and in many ways offering up our best players as a result of our own efforts, what are we getting in return if we are all working in the spirit of co-operation that we say we are?" I don't see it as an irrelevant point to bring up.
 

POINTMAN

Well-Known Member
But they are able to cherry pick the best talent. They are doing that very thing. It's hardly a controversial or inaccurate statement. The numbers maybe relatively small - three in 2019, six in 2018, one in 2017, four in 2016, four 2015, but more have stayed out there than come back, and many are from counties that can't afford to be losing their best young players. I'm not against players leaving, if they get the chance they should go and develop themselves, their horizons and make a career for themselves if they are good enough. I would love to have if I'd been anywhere good enough. But it does leave a slight sour taste in the mouth, not that the player is leaving, but that a team from the other side of the world can walk in and say, "we've got this now, thanks for all your effort."

How is it exaggerating their fitness or skill level? That's what's making them stand out and making them attractive prospects. They are hardly signing Conor McKenna, Conor Glass, Mark O'Connor or anyone else cause they don't think they have serious levels of fitness, speed and skill which they think they can adapt to Aussie Rules.

In your opinion it's a red herring. The question is being asked what can the GAA do about? If your answer is nothing, then I think you're being deliberately obtuse to the question and the issue. I'm sure that the GAA have said "we can't stop you and we can't compete with you being able to offer professional contracts, but since we are doing much of the leg work here and in many ways offering up our best players as a result of our own efforts, what are we getting in return if we are all working in the spirit of co-operation that we say we are?" I don't see it as an irrelevant point to bring up.
Do you really think the Aussie clubs care?
Nothing we can do.
 

Peter grimes

Well-Known Member
But they are able to cherry pick the best talent. They are doing that very thing. It's hardly a controversial or inaccurate statement. The numbers maybe relatively small - three in 2019, six in 2018, one in 2017, four in 2016, four 2015, but more have stayed out there than come back, and many are from counties that can't afford to be losing their best young players. I'm not against players leaving, if they get the chance they should go and develop themselves, their horizons and make a career for themselves if they are good enough. I would love to have if I'd been anywhere good enough. But it does leave a slight sour taste in the mouth, not that the player is leaving, but that a team from the other side of the world can walk in and say, "we've got this now, thanks for all your effort."

How is it exaggerating their fitness or skill level? That's what's making them stand out and making them attractive prospects. They are hardly signing Conor McKenna, Conor Glass, Mark O'Connor or anyone else cause they don't think they have serious levels of fitness, speed and skill which they think they can adapt to Aussie Rules.

In your opinion it's a red herring. The question is being asked what can the GAA do about? If your answer is nothing, then I think you're being deliberately obtuse to the question and the issue. I'm sure that the GAA have said "we can't stop you and we can't compete with you being able to offer professional contracts, but since we are doing much of the leg work here and in many ways offering up our best players as a result of our own efforts, what are we getting in return if we are all working in the spirit of co-operation that we say we are?" I don't see it as an irrelevant point to bring up.
The bit that I said was a red herring was the compensation. Aussie sides are just not going to sign up to a compensation scheme and nobody can make them.

Earlier I cited the example of guys from here emigrating for other jobs. That remains relevant. If your club loses 2 guys. Both go to Sydney. 1 is contracted to the Swans and the other to First Derivatives. You club nutured both. It loses both. If you knock the Swans’ door looking for compensation tell me how you are going to get anything more that the blank look you would get at the First Derivatives door? Tell me how it would work?

Inter county players are ridiculously fit for amateurs. Anybody going to Aussie rules has serious work to do to get fit enough to play. How many have come back because their bodies have broken down under the rigours of professional training regimes but have been able to go back to inter county training methods?

The skills between the games are different. The absence of Irish forwards is a consistent established trend. The oval ball skills aren’t there. The long lead in time to establishing Irish players as first teamers is not a coincidence. The long list of players willing to tryout in the Irish trials results in very few offers being made. Supply from Ireland is vastly greater than demand from Australia. McShane is bucking the trend in terms of age. If it takes 2 years to establish the skills and fitness he will be well up in his 20s. This is not the usual model
 

PatMustard

Well-Known Member
If you worked flipping burgers, and you were headhunted by Bruce McDonald to flip burgers at Bondi Beach, odds are you’d say hell yeah.

Surfing on your lunch break, barbecues on the beach, great weather and a different way of life.

It’s no different for lads offered a similar experience for playing ball. You can’t blame them for wanting to sample all that.
 

Patrick-Armagh

Well-Known Member
The bit that I said was a red herring was the compensation. Aussie sides are just not going to sign up to a compensation scheme and nobody can make them.

Earlier I cited the example of guys from here emigrating for other jobs. That remains relevant. If your club loses 2 guys. Both go to Sydney. 1 is contracted to the Swans and the other to First Derivatives. You club nutured both. It loses both. If you knock the Swans’ door looking for compensation tell me how you are going to get anything more that the blank look you would get at the First Derivatives door? Tell me how it would work?

Inter county players are ridiculously fit for amateurs. Anybody going to Aussie rules has serious work to do to get fit enough to play. How many have come back because their bodies have broken down under the rigours of professional training regimes but have been able to go back to inter county training methods?

The skills between the games are different. The absence of Irish forwards is a consistent established trend. The oval ball skills aren’t there. The long lead in time to establishing Irish players as first teamers is not a coincidence. The long list of players willing to tryout in the Irish trials results in very few offers being made. Supply from Ireland is vastly greater than demand from Australia. McShane is bucking the trend in terms of age. If it takes 2 years to establish the skills and fitness he will be well up in his 20s. This is not the usual model
The GAA would have to come to an agreement with the AFL, the governing body, which clubs would adhere to. I'm not talking about millions here, but if it was the case that a county and club shared £10k or €10k for a player, allowing them to add flood lights to the pitch or put toward running costs, it would be a drop in the ocean for the AFL clubs and something for the club and county to use to better themselves. I'm not sure why that is seen as so unreasonable or unrealistic. If the GAA and the AFL have this working relationship, what is stopping the GAA from asking this?

I'm well aware of the step up in fitness levels required, but they know that these guys have the grounding and physical make up to make that step up - massively aided by the work they have done playing for club and county. While the players they are taking out there aren't the next Buddy Franklin or Patrick Dangerfield, I'm not sure that that is relevant to the skills they look for in Irish players. Their ability to kick the ball accurately off both feet, their reading of the game, their speed, their handling skills, allowing teams to transition quickly up the field and create overlaps are all the skills which Aussie Rules teams are forever commenting on about our players when they go over. They aren't expecting them to be the next star forward for Collingwood. If you don't think that the skills and work they have done and be coached in when playing Gaelic football doesn't greatly enhance their ability to perform them while playing in the AFL, then fair enough.
 

Peter grimes

Well-Known Member
The GAA would have to come to an agreement with the AFL, the governing body, which clubs would adhere to. I'm not talking about millions here, but if it was the case that a county and club shared £10k or €10k for a player, allowing them to add flood lights to the pitch or put toward running costs, it would be a drop in the ocean for the AFL clubs and something for the club and county to use to better themselves. I'm not sure why that is seen as so unreasonable or unrealistic. If the GAA and the AFL have this working relationship, what is stopping the GAA from asking this?

I'm well aware of the step up in fitness levels required, but they know that these guys have the grounding and physical make up to make that step up - massively aided by the work they have done playing for club and county. While the players they are taking out there aren't the next Buddy Franklin or Patrick Dangerfield, I'm not sure that that is relevant to the skills they look for in Irish players. Their ability to kick the ball accurately off both feet, their reading of the game, their speed, their handling skills, allowing teams to transition quickly up the field and create overlaps are all the skills which Aussie Rules teams are forever commenting on about our players when they go over. They aren't expecting them to be the next star forward for Collingwood. If you don't think that the skills and work they have done and be coached in when playing Gaelic football doesn't greatly enhance their ability to perform them while playing in the AFL, then fair enough.
You might want come to an agreement with the AFL but why would they come to any such agreement? What would motivate them any more than First Derivatives (in the example I cited) to cough up?

For me you are still in red herring territory here
 

niall1980

Well-Known Member
The GAA would have to come to an agreement with the AFL, the governing body, which clubs would adhere to. I'm not talking about millions here, but if it was the case that a county and club shared £10k or €10k for a player, allowing them to add flood lights to the pitch or put toward running costs, it would be a drop in the ocean for the AFL clubs and something for the club and county to use to better themselves. I'm not sure why that is seen as so unreasonable or unrealistic. If the GAA and the AFL have this working relationship, what is stopping the GAA from asking this?

I'm well aware of the step up in fitness levels required, but they know that these guys have the grounding and physical make up to make that step up - massively aided by the work they have done playing for club and county. While the players they are taking out there aren't the next Buddy Franklin or Patrick Dangerfield, I'm not sure that that is relevant to the skills they look for in Irish players. Their ability to kick the ball accurately off both feet, their reading of the game, their speed, their handling skills, allowing teams to transition quickly up the field and create overlaps are all the skills which Aussie Rules teams are forever commenting on about our players when they go over. They aren't expecting them to be the next star forward for Collingwood. If you don't think that the skills and work they have done and be coached in when playing Gaelic football doesn't greatly enhance their ability to perform them while playing in the AFL, then fair enough.
Why would the AFL agree to anything like that?
 

Big Jim

Well-Known Member
St michael is now calling for a complete break from ties to the AFL. Thy will be done mr mick!!
 

PatMustard

Well-Known Member
St michael is now calling for a complete break from ties to the AFL. Thy will be done mr mick!!

Hmm, it’s a bit late like.

Even if they end the Rules series, and the GAA block the AFL on Facebook, they still will come looking our best players.
 

Big Jim

Well-Known Member
Hmm, it’s a bit late like.

Even if they end the Rules series, and the GAA block the AFL on Facebook, they still will come looking our best players.
Oooooh look at you all techie!! Did the grandchild #37 feed you some internet info at Christmas??

But if we cover our eyes they won't know we're here!

All joking aside, there are hundreds of AFL clubs across Australia and a minuscule number of GAA players being sought. It's not an epidemic. It's not a scary number. It's not worth worrying about, because compensation isn't gonna happen. It'll not happen with any other industry and this will be no different.

Marty Clarke done well puttin Mickey back in his box
He sure did!

Now back to the McKenna thread and Wednesday evening in Armagh, which actually IS important to us.
 
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