Average Age/Young players

There has been some commentators using the terms up and coming/ good young team for us and our performances this year. Out of interest does anyone know the exact age’s of the players who played against Mayo (including used subs)? I have a felling that we are a lot older than what people believe!

Also if the average profile is 27+ is there an argument to be made that this group have had their chance and therefore a new team needs be formulated. Realistically how close is this group and is there longevity within the group i.e sustained success over the course of 4-6 years?
 
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Big Jim

Well-Known Member
Not sure what the age profile is overall as it would take five mounts to calculate, but going by the player profiles on the county website from last year (http://armaghgaa.net/player-profiles-2018/ ) the most of them seem to be in the early to mid twenties with Charlie Vernon and Brendan Donaghy being the obvious exceptions. Factor in that thee are a few more new players this year (Rian, Jarly Og, Oisin O'Neill etc. ) and it means the average will be quite low.

I think I know what you mean when you say "is there an argument to be made that this group have had their chance and therefore a new team needs be formulated" and it's not necessarily "get rid of who we have and start again, although by first reading, you'd think that's what you mean. That would never be good. The team has and will evolve naturally over the years.

In answer to the question, no we're not older than people think. No this group have not "had their chance". It's only just beginning for most of them, by their age and that will bring it's own experience and when added to youth and new additions means it's positive for the next few years by which time others will put their heads above water and continue the process.

I'd imagine the Dublin starting 15 would have a higher average age along with Mayo, Kerry, Donegal and Tyrone. Not sure about Cork, Roscommon or Meath, but the perception is that they are quite "experienced" which is probably code for "old".
 
Ok went and carried out my own research. Of the 18 players who played against Mayo the average age was 24.4. Which indicated that we have a young team. Yes.

However of this there are 7 players within an experienced age bracket 27-32. (I might be a little out)

Mark Sheilds 29
Paul Hughes 27
Aidan Forker 27
Stefan Campbell 28
Brendan Donaghy 32/33
Jamie Clarke 29
Rory Grugan 28

Add in James Morgan and Andrew Murnin who are both around 28!

I don’t know! Considering these lads will be a year older I personally think this is a lot of players of a certain age to have on your team (not squad). To make the step up, the speed in which we play needs to increase big time. In general this can only happen with athletic ability. I’ll be honest I don’t think with this age profile this can achieved.

I am not advocating a complete cull by any stretch of the imagination, and it would be a different conversation if we have been successful over the past 5-7 years in terms of divisional status and regular q/f appearances and USFC wins.

My main concern is particularly on the defensive side of the game, 4 of the above mentioned players are defenders. Which is really scary!!! I think whoever manages us (I hope it is Geezer) has a serious job on their hand to find 2/3 fast mobile aggressive young defenders who have the ability to mark with space in front on them. This is no easy task! Yes things happen naturally and organically, but hard decisions also need to be made!

P.s all the lads I mentioned are fantastic players, ambassadors and gaels. They have represented our county admiringly. This is not a cut at them.
 
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h754136

Active Member
Very pertinent issue to raise given that we are in the process of deciding the future of the current management team.

There's a core group of players named by 'cast no shadow' above who have been with the Armagh seniors since 2012 or earlier. These men amount to more than half the team, and by next year will be entering into at least their 9th season of county football. These men are in their footballing prime, or perhaps just the wrong side of it in some cases, and can not therefore realistically be expected to drive continued improvement in the side.

If Armagh are to push on in the next few seasons, that improvement will have to come from lads 25 and below. Men that haven't yet reached their peak on a football pitch. We have a couple of lads in that bracket, but we need to bring through more. This is where our the Armagh management teams of 2020 and beyond will earn their corn.
 

h754136

Active Member
I'd imagine the Dublin starting 15 would have a higher average age along with Mayo, Kerry, Donegal and Tyrone. Not sure about Cork, Roscommon or Meath, but the perception is that they are quite "experienced" which is probably code for "old".

Of those teams mentioned above, I'd only be confident that Mayo have a higher average age than Armagh. And look at how that age has caught up with them this season.

Dublin are model for everyone and they are succeeding by continually renewing their side. Of the side that started at the weekend Fenton, McCaffery, Byrne, O'Callaghan, Howard, Mannion, Small, Scully, Costello & Kilkenny are all 26 or younger. That's 10 men. Of our starting team against Mayo we had at most 8 men aged 26 or under.

Take Murphy and McGee out of the Donegal side and they are very youthful. Tyrone's age profile is probably comparable with ours, but they're already delivering with an AI final appearance last year and probably at least another semi-final appearance this year. And as for Kerry, if you haven't heard about what's going on down there then you really have no business commenting on the current intercounty scene.
 

niall1980

Well-Known Member
Of those teams mentioned above, I'd only be confident that Mayo have a higher average age than Armagh. And look at how that age has caught up with them this season.

Dublin are model for everyone and they are succeeding by continually renewing their side. Of the side that started at the weekend Fenton, McCaffery, Byrne, O'Callaghan, Howard, Mannion, Small, Scully, Costello & Kilkenny are all 26 or younger. That's 10 men. Of our starting team against Mayo we had at most 8 men aged 26 or under.

Take Murphy and McGee out of the Donegal side and they are very youthful. Tyrone's age profile is probably comparable with ours, but they're already delivering with an AI final appearance last year and probably at least another semi-final appearance this year. And as for Kerry, if you haven't heard about what's going on down there then you really have no business commenting on the current intercounty scene.
Yet Dublin still rely so much on Cluxton, OSullivan, McMahon, Cooper, McAuley, Rick they always bring McManamon on. They have just brought Connolly back into the squad. Take those players out and Dublin aren’t the team they are.
Mayo have been hurt this year by injuries more than age.
Tyrone again you’re looking st older players like Cavanagh, Donnelly and Harte.
Kerry have won god knows how many minor titles in a row but outside the two superstars how many of those teams are featuring for the seniors
 

ragingbull

Well-Known Member
Yet Dublin still rely so much on Cluxton, OSullivan, McMahon, Cooper, McAuley, Rick they always bring McManamon on. They have just brought Connolly back into the squad. Take those players out and Dublin aren’t the team they are.
Mayo have been hurt this year by injuries more than age.
Tyrone again you’re looking st older players like Cavanagh, Donnelly and Harte.
Kerry have won god knows how many minor titles in a row but outside the two superstars how many of those teams are featuring for the seniors
Your forgetting about McCaffrey,Fenton,killkenny,Rock,Mannion,O'Callaghan are as much as important to Dublin than the players you monited
 
For me the debate is around developing young players verses sticking with established players. Sticking with established players is fine as is the case with i.e. Dublin, Mayo etc but these are really successful teams. You can’t in anyway compare an ageing Dublin team going for 5 in a row to an Ageing Armagh team who have yo-yoed Div 2/3s. Our team has not been successful.

I think what I am getting at is that we have two many starters in a certain age bracket. This needs to change next year. Yes there is a possibility we may get into super 8 2020 etc but whats is the point if it is for one year! Seriously should the vision be to create something which is sustainable for 4-6 years?

In fairness when Geezer took over i believe this was his intention. This obviously hasn’t happened for various reason. Maybe the mindset of the group wasn’t in the correct place. Or the culture within the county wasn’t right. I don’t know I’m not privy to that. But he or however might need to hit the reset button a little, because the game is about speed, strong runners, agility. This is not something you develop with age.
 
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h754136

Active Member
Yet Dublin still rely so much on Cluxton, OSullivan, McMahon, Cooper, McAuley, Rick they always bring McManamon on. They have just brought Connolly back into the squad. Take those players out and Dublin aren’t the team they are.
I'll give you Cluxton, OSullivan, McMahon & Cooper, but that't less than a third of a team - with one a goalie. They won the last two AIs with McAuley a bit part player, so not sure how much they rely on him. Connolly didn't play at all in last year's success, so again, how much is he relied upon? Rock is 29 - younger than Jamie Clarke. McManamon is a sub, would you say we relied on Ethan Rafferty or Charlie Vernon this year?

Mayo have been hurt this year by injuries more than age.
They've been hurt by both. But it would take some amount of selective blindness to miss the toll age has had on the performance levels of the likes of Higgins, Moran, Harrison, Boyle, etc.

Tyrone again you’re looking st older players like Cavanagh, Donnelly and Harte.
Yes Tyrone have good older players. But they're not waiting on them to develop for another few years to challenge at the top, they're already reaching AI finals with these men.

Kerry have won god knows how many minor titles in a row but outside the two superstars how many of those teams are featuring for the seniors
I make nine of the Kerry team that started at the weekend 25 or under - Ryan, Morley, Foley, O’Sullivan, Crowley, Spillane, White, O’Shea & Clifford. Additional 5 of their 6 subs are also 25 or under. So that's 14 of the 21 men used under 25. I'd go out on a limb and guess that leaves them with a significantly lower average age than the one quoted previously for ourselves (which I think is underestimate - our average age this year was about 26). And they've just taken Mayo to pieces - the same Mayo that beat us.

---

I'm sorry to badger on about this topic, but I feel there's a bit of a false narrative out there that needs tackled. This narrative tries to convince that the current Armagh side are younger than most of the top sides about at the minute, and, that with another two or three years of development, it's not unreasonable to believe that we could be up there challenging.

But the reality of the situation is that the current Armagh side has a comparable, if not less favourable, age profile to top teams like Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone & Donegal. So is time actually on our side? It's important for us to be aware of this reality when setting expectations for the team and its management over the next few years. But I'm sure the important people know all this.
 

niall1980

Well-Known Member
I'll give you Cluxton, OSullivan, McMahon & Cooper, but that't less than a third of a team - with one a goalie. They won the last two AIs with McAuley a bit part player, so not sure how much they rely on him. Connolly didn't play at all in last year's success, so again, how much is he relied upon? Rock is 29 - younger than Jamie Clarke. McManamon is a sub, would you say we relied on Ethan Rafferty or Charlie Vernon this year?


They've been hurt by both. But it would take some amount of selective blindness to miss the toll age has had on the performance levels of the likes of Higgins, Moran, Harrison, Boyle, etc.


Yes Tyrone have good older players. But they're not waiting on them to develop for another few years to challenge at the top, they're already reaching AI finals with these men.


I make nine of the Kerry team that started at the weekend 25 or under - Ryan, Morley, Foley, O’Sullivan, Crowley, Spillane, White, O’Shea & Clifford. Additional 5 of their 6 subs are also 25 or under. So that's 14 of the 21 men used under 25. I'd go out on a limb and guess that leaves them with a significantly lower average age than the one quoted previously for ourselves (which I think is underestimate - our average age this year was about 26). And they've just taken Mayo to pieces - the same Mayo that beat us.

---

I'm sorry to badger on about this topic, but I feel there's a bit of a false narrative out there that needs tackled. This narrative tries to convince that the current Armagh side are younger than most of the top sides about at the minute, and, that with another two or three years of development, it's not unreasonable to believe that we could be up there challenging.

But the reality of the situation is that the current Armagh side has a comparable, if not less favourable, age profile to top teams like Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone & Donegal. So is time actually on our side? It's important for us to be aware of this reality when setting expectations for the team and its management over the next few years. But I'm sure the important people know all this.
Cluxton is a keeper but probably still the most influential player they have. I didn’t say they rely on Mcmanaman but they usually always bring him on so they still see him as important. Connolly may not have played much over the last two years but the fact they brought him back is telling.
Anyway, my point was you need the older experienced heads in the team to be successful. I think with us people look at the rise of the likes of Jarly Og and Rian and call us a very young team. However the likes of Donaghy and forker are vital to us. The players you mentioned all have a good few years left to help the younger players come on. With the exception of Donaghy and Vernon obviously. I’d also worry about Murnin And to a lesser extent Morgan as the injuries will have taken some extent on them both.
 

niall1980

Well-Known Member
Your forgetting about McCaffrey,Fenton,killkenny,Rock,Mannion,O'Callaghan are as much as important to Dublin than the players you monited
I don’t think I am. In fact I mentioned Rock. Maybe read my post again and try to understand it better this time
 

Big Jim

Well-Known Member
I'll give you Cluxton, OSullivan, McMahon & Cooper, but that't less than a third of a team - with one a goalie. They won the last two AIs with McAuley a bit part player, so not sure how much they rely on him. Connolly didn't play at all in last year's success, so again, how much is he relied upon? Rock is 29 - younger than Jamie Clarke. McManamon is a sub, would you say we relied on Ethan Rafferty or Charlie Vernon this year?


They've been hurt by both. But it would take some amount of selective blindness to miss the toll age has had on the performance levels of the likes of Higgins, Moran, Harrison, Boyle, etc.


Yes Tyrone have good older players. But they're not waiting on them to develop for another few years to challenge at the top, they're already reaching AI finals with these men.


I make nine of the Kerry team that started at the weekend 25 or under - Ryan, Morley, Foley, O’Sullivan, Crowley, Spillane, White, O’Shea & Clifford. Additional 5 of their 6 subs are also 25 or under. So that's 14 of the 21 men used under 25. I'd go out on a limb and guess that leaves them with a significantly lower average age than the one quoted previously for ourselves (which I think is underestimate - our average age this year was about 26). And they've just taken Mayo to pieces - the same Mayo that beat us.

---

I'm sorry to badger on about this topic, but I feel there's a bit of a false narrative out there that needs tackled. This narrative tries to convince that the current Armagh side are younger than most of the top sides about at the minute, and, that with another two or three years of development, it's not unreasonable to believe that we could be up there challenging.

But the reality of the situation is that the current Armagh side has a comparable, if not less favourable, age profile to top teams like Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone & Donegal. So is time actually on our side? It's important for us to be aware of this reality when setting expectations for the team and its management over the next few years. But I'm sure the important people know all this.
I agree almost entirely with what you're saying, but just put less importance on age profile. Some players will last longer than others, that we know for fact. Aaron Kernan a prime example of someone we could ill afford to lose so early on. I'm not stupid enough to be suggesting that age doesn't matter. Just that it's only a factor, a big factor yes, but like the impression given by certain media, not the biggest factor.

Look let's set aside all silliness and messing, put tinted glasses etc on the head out of the way and be honest. We really don't have the talent of any of the other big eight teams. We DO have talent, but near as much as we need or that of other teams and I genuinely don't believe we have it throughout the rest of the county and missing from our main squad. Of course everyone can name someone they think should be there, but for various reasons they aren't and only they alone know why. We can speculate as much as we want.

So I say once again, we need to stop talking shite about where we "should" be. It's a case of where we "could" be if we played every player that's the best we have in every position. This bull*@^+ about "him not being available" or "him not playing because" is frankly getting boring. In 130+ years we have won one All Ireland senior football title and been in four finals. What part of that gives us the right to believe our pedigree suggests we should be better than our top 20 place at the minute? So Ross McQuillan and the other 50 players that some believe should be in the squad join up and brings our average age to 22. Geezer is replaced by Jim Gavin and suddenly we win five AI titles in a row? What a crock of crap. We are in the best position we have been in around ten years and can improve, but believe it or not we won't be winning Sam any time soon and I don't give a bollox who the manager is or isn't. That won't change.

Does any of that stop me from wanting to follow or believe in my county? Absolutely not, because maybe, just maybe we get a lucky break. I support Armagh, because of my birthplace and family allegiance. Because I enjoy Gaelic games and the banter I get with it. Not because some faceless keyboard warriors on a forum says we CAN be the best. I'm here for banter and craic, so forgive me if I don't give a monkeys arse for what age a player is or how they are truly getting on in Kerry so I don't.
 

thecritic

Well-Known Member
http://www.hoganstand.com/Article/Index/301794

All the best to young Ross if he goes, a blow but no one should be denied the chance at a professional sports career if its offered

Knew this would happen - has the perfect build and speed for this game. He will bulk-up seriously down there and I think he'll be a major success. A huge blow for ourselves but something that is quite common these days. I always feel for Derry who have a few young starlets down there.
 
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