County Championship - A new approach

B

Baldy_locks

New Member
Long post here, so please bear with me.
As has been discussed in many counties over the years, why don't we adopt the Kerry system of 'regional' teams for a county championship? Individual clubs would still compete in their club championships, but a new system would mean that every player in the county could aspire to competing for the county championship every year.

Let's look at how this might look in Armagh (I'll be using the 2022 leagues to illustrate the point).

First of all, we'd have 8 'Senior' clubs - These 8 would compete in the senior 'county' championship against 'regional' teams as well as competing in the senior 'club' championship too. The winner of the 'county' championship would represent us in Ulster , unless a regional team wins it. If that was the cse then the winner of the senior club championship would go forward into Ulster.
Below Senior we'd then have intermediate, Junior A, B, C, D. This would increase our competitiveness at Ulster club level also.

The leagues and 'club' championships would look like this;

SENIOR
Crossmaglen
Clann Eireann
Dromintee
Killeavy
Armagh Harps
Maghery
Madden
Granemore

INTERMEDIATE
Ballymacnab
Cullyhanna
Silverbridge
Mullabawn
Pearse Og
Sarsfields
Clan na Gael
Grange

JUNIOR A
Shane O'Neill's
Carrickcruppen
Tullysaran
St Peter's
St Paul's
Wolfe Tones
Annaghmore
Whitecross

JUNIOR B
Belleek
Culloville
Ballyhegan
Clonmore
Tir na nog
Forkhill
Collegeland
Keady
Cross II

JUNIOR C
Derrynoose
Middletown
Eire Og
Newtownhamilton
Dorsey
Lissummon

Junior D
Killeavy II
Corrinshego
An Port Mor
O'Hanlon's
Clady
Mullabrack

Beyond this we'd then have our 'county' championship.

REGIONS - COUNTY CHAMPIONSHIP (clubs in BLOCK CAPITALS would compete on their own in the county championship unless relegated - when relegated they'd join their regional side the following season - for example, Dromintee next year would fall back into their regional side, Ballymacnab would be going up to competing on their own)

1. SOUTH ARMAGH EAST (cruppen, shanes, corrinshego, whitecross, lissummon, o'hanlons, belleek) KILLEAVY, DROMINTEE

2. SOUTH ARMAGH WEST (Newtownhamilton, Dorsey, Silverbridge, Cullyhanna, Cullaville, Mullabawn, Forkhill) CROSSMAGLEN

3. MID ARMAGH WEST (Clady, Ballymacnab, Keady, Derrynoose, Middletown) MADDEN, GRANEMORE

4. MID ARMAGH CENTRAL (Pearse Og, An Port Mor, Tullysaran, Grange, Mullabrack) HARPS

5. NORTH ARMAGH COUNTRY (Annaghmore, Clonmore, Collegeland, Wolfe Tones, Sarsfields, Ballyhegan) MAGHERY

6. NORTH ARMAGH TOWN (St Peter's, St Paul's, Clan na Gael, Tir na nog, Eire Og) CLANN EIREANN

This is just a rough example of how it might work, I'm sure there are better minds than mine who could refine this even further. Thoughts?
 
A

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
I do like the idea of it in theory- theres probably lads playing for the likes of Newtown/O’Hanlons/Corrinshego that’ll never get a chance to play at the highest level but would be well able to- gives county management a chance to get looking at them as well.
 
B

bcb1

Well-Known Member
In theory I have always said it would work. Something like 2 regional teams north, mid and south. The reason it works in Kerry and cork though is geography. The likes of East Kerry or Muskerry in cork, or any of them are nearly as big as Armagh as a whole.
 
B

Baldy_locks

New Member
bcb1 said:
In theory I have always said it would work. Something like 2 regional teams north, mid and south. The reason it works in Kerry and cork though is geography. The likes of East Kerry or Muskerry in cork, or any of them are nearly as big as Armagh as a whole.
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Yeah I definitely think it would be a positive move, especially in that the best players each year would get the opportunity to prove themselves at a higher level regardless of their club’s standing. This could only benefit the county team.
I accept the argument about Kerry and Cork and their sheer size compared to Armagh. We do however have a significant amount of clubs and a decent sized population, so I’m sure it could work.
 
N

Not too serious

Member
When in the calendar year would this fit in?

The “club” championship would be almost every clubs main competition and would need played off first before the “county” championship.

Given our county players see zero club action before armagh finish up, and in the suggestion league placings determine if a club will be regional or not come county championship making it all the more important that clubs get access to their own players, there isn’t much time to fit it all in.

Think there is merit in the thought but is there a will? Likely not
 
B

Baldy_locks

New Member
Not too serious said:
When in the calendar year would this fit in?

The “club” championship would be almost every clubs main competition and would need played off first before the “county” championship.

Given our county players see zero club action before armagh finish up, and in the suggestion league placings determine if a club will be regional or not come county championship making it all the more important that clubs get access to their own players, there isn’t much time to fit it all in.

Think there is merit in the thought but is there a will? Likely not
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We’d have to look at the Kerry calendar and see how they do it. It works there so could work here.
Regarding the league placings, that would be determined the year before. For example, Dromintee this year would be relegated to intermediate but they’d still compete in the senior championship, just in the same way Clonmore were relegated to junior but competed in intermediate. If they won their championship they’d stay up.
 
A

armaghtimmy

Well-Known Member
Baldy_locks said:
Long post here, so please bear with me.
As has been discussed in many counties over the years, why don't we adopt the Kerry system of 'regional' teams for a county championship? Individual clubs would still compete in their club championships, but a new system would mean that every player in the county could aspire to competing for the county championship every year.

Let's look at how this might look in Armagh (I'll be using the 2022 leagues to illustrate the point).

First of all, we'd have 8 'Senior' clubs - These 8 would compete in the senior 'county' championship against 'regional' teams as well as competing in the senior 'club' championship too. The winner of the 'county' championship would represent us in Ulster , unless a regional team wins it. If that was the cse then the winner of the senior club championship would go forward into Ulster.
Below Senior we'd then have intermediate, Junior A, B, C, D. This would increase our competitiveness at Ulster club level also.

The leagues and 'club' championships would look like this;

SENIOR
Crossmaglen
Clann Eireann
Dromintee
Killeavy
Armagh Harps
Maghery
Madden
Granemore

INTERMEDIATE
Ballymacnab
Cullyhanna
Silverbridge
Mullabawn
Pearse Og
Sarsfields
Clan na Gael
Grange

JUNIOR A
Shane O'Neill's
Carrickcruppen
Tullysaran
St Peter's
St Paul's
Wolfe Tones
Annaghmore
Whitecross

JUNIOR B
Belleek
Culloville
Ballyhegan
Clonmore
Tir na nog
Forkhill
Collegeland
Keady
Cross II

JUNIOR C
Derrynoose
Middletown
Eire Og
Newtownhamilton
Dorsey
Lissummon

Junior D
Killeavy II
Corrinshego
An Port Mor
O'Hanlon's
Clady
Mullabrack

Beyond this we'd then have our 'county' championship.

REGIONS - COUNTY CHAMPIONSHIP (clubs in BLOCK CAPITALS would compete on their own in the county championship unless relegated - when relegated they'd join their regional side the following season - for example, Dromintee next year would fall back into their regional side, Ballymacnab would be going up to competing on their own)

1. SOUTH ARMAGH EAST (cruppen, shanes, corrinshego, whitecross, lissummon, o'hanlons, belleek) KILLEAVY, DROMINTEE

2. SOUTH ARMAGH WEST (Newtownhamilton, Dorsey, Silverbridge, Cullyhanna, Cullaville, Mullabawn, Forkhill) CROSSMAGLEN

3. MID ARMAGH WEST (Clady, Ballymacnab, Keady, Derrynoose, Middletown) MADDEN, GRANEMORE

4. MID ARMAGH CENTRAL (Pearse Og, An Port Mor, Tullysaran, Grange, Mullabrack) HARPS

5. NORTH ARMAGH COUNTRY (Annaghmore, Clonmore, Collegeland, Wolfe Tones, Sarsfields, Ballyhegan) MAGHERY

6. NORTH ARMAGH TOWN (St Peter's, St Paul's, Clan na Gael, Tir na nog, Eire Og) CLANN EIREANN

This is just a rough example of how it might work, I'm sure there are better minds than mine who could refine this even further. Thoughts?
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Fantastic idea IMO
 
JoeH

JoeH

Well-Known Member
Great idea

However the split season means there's no room for two championships as county players are playing league February till early April. Then provincial starts, then the round robin competition, then all Ireland QFs.

That's up to may/June then AI games potentially till end of July ish.

Ulster club starts end of October early November.
 
A

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
JoeH said:
Great idea

However the split season means there's no room for two championships as county players are playing league February till early April. Then provincial starts, then the round robin competition, then all Ireland QFs.

That's up to may/June then AI games potentially till end of July ish.

Ulster club starts end of October early November.
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How do Kerry do it? They’re generally in the championship to the business end

I do think it’s a great idea but probably a scheduling nightmare
 
ShiftYa

ShiftYa

Well-Known Member
Armaghball said:
How do Kerry do it? They’re generally in the championship to the business end

I do think it’s a great idea but probably a scheduling nightmare
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Kerry manage to do it with a group stage format too, which takes longer than straight knockout.

They’re running the championships concurrently I believe, as I seen a news article about someone giving out about the scheduling down there.

I’m in favour of it, but could see clubs objecting to it as it ‘dilutes’ the value of a championship by having so many grades. I think Kerry may have regional championships such as the south Kerry championship as opposed to junior D, but open to correction on that. Some clubs may refuse to make their players available, not participate if they’re a senior team, if they believe it’ll detract from their club championships campaigns.

Be great if someone who knows the setup of the Kerry and Cork models in more detail could outline it on this forum so it can be compared against @Baldy_locks proposal.
 
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ShiftYa

ShiftYa

Well-Known Member
So Kerry only have 8 teams total in their senior club championship, Intermediate winner goes up every year while one team gets relegated after losing 2 playoffs. Very cut throat as Austin Stacks got relegated this year.
The Senior championship is comprised of the 8 senior clubs plus 8 divisional sides, Stacks fall into the St Brendan's regional team next year, so 16 team competition.
An argument that 8 senior teams is too few for a senior championship in such a large footballing county is regularly raised but this is usually countered by Kerry folk who argue; to add more teams would dilute the standard of their regional sides.
As you can imagine having your 9th best club side representing you at intermediate provincial and AI level makes them the most successful county at this grade too.
 
A

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
Am I right in saying they play another senior championship also with only club teams (not the regional teams)? Does it only have 8 teams then?
 
ShiftYa

ShiftYa

Well-Known Member
Armaghball said:
Am I right in saying they play another senior championship also with only club teams (not the regional teams)? Does it only have 8 teams then?
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Yeah, the Senior ‘club’ Championship - 8 teams and the Senior Championship- 16 teams are two different competitions.
In the event a regional side wins the Senior Championship the Club winner represents Kerry at the provincial level.
Also relegation/promotion from/to the Senior club championship affects the make up of the regional teams the following year. For example Austin Stacks can’t compete as a club in the Senior Championship next year (as they’re now an intermediate side) but their players will be added to the St Brendan's regional side, while one regional side will become weaker as the intermediate winners will be removed from their respective regional side and will compete in the Senior Championship as a single club.
 
A

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
ShiftYa said:
Yeah, the Senior ‘club’ Championship - 8 teams and the Senior Championship- 16 teams are two different competitions.
In the event a regional side wins the Senior Championship the Club winner represents Kerry at the provincial level.
Also relegation/promotion from/to the Senior club championship affects the make up of the regional teams the following year. For example Austin Stacks can’t compete as a club in the Senior Championship next year (as they’re now an intermediate side) but their players will be added to the St Brendan's regional side, while one regional side will become weaker as the intermediate winners will be removed from their respective regional side and will compete in the Senior Championship as a single club.
Click to expand...
Cheers. Must throw a few quid on Stacks for the All Ireland Intermediate in 2024 ;)
 
PatMustard

PatMustard

Well-Known Member
ShiftYa said:
Yeah, the Senior ‘club’ Championship - 8 teams and the Senior Championship- 16 teams are two different competitions.
In the event a regional side wins the Senior Championship the Club winner represents Kerry at the provincial level.
Also relegation/promotion from/to the Senior club championship affects the make up of the regional teams the following year. For example Austin Stacks can’t compete as a club in the Senior Championship next year (as they’re now an intermediate side) but their players will be added to the St Brendan's regional side, while one regional side will become weaker as the intermediate winners will be removed from their respective regional side and will compete in the Senior Championship as a single club.
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How do Kerry find the time to run two championships? When every other county’s championship is run off like the Benny Hill show.

They’re usually one of the last counties to exit the All Ireland every year, yet they can still manage to play two championships?

Does time work differently in Kerry or something? What’s their secret?
 
A

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
PatMustard said:
How do Kerry find the time to run two championships? When every other county’s championship is run off like the Benny Hill show.

They’re usually one of the last counties to exit the All Ireland every year, yet they can still manage to play two championships?

Does time work differently in Kerry or something? What’s their secret?
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Kerry Championship - Page 5

Kerry Championship - Page 5
gaaboard.com
@PatMustard detailed post there with the schedules (precovid)
 
K

Kem

Active Member
PatMustard said:
How do Kerry find the time to run two championships? When every other county’s championship is run off like the Benny Hill show.

They’re usually one of the last counties to exit the All Ireland every year, yet they can still manage to play two championships?

Does time work differently in Kerry or something? What’s their secret?
Click to expand...
Maybe the reason Kerry are so strong is that their players play a lot of club football. Saw James O Donohue on the Football Pod a few weeks ago mentioning that when the major competitions are finished his area, East Kerry, play a tournament type competition which keeps the clubs going to Christmas. Armagh clubs who were knocked out in the first round, and that's 50%, have no football for about 6 months.
 
A

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
Kem said:
Maybe the reason Kerry are so strong is that their players play a lot of club football. Saw James O Donohue on the Football Pod a few weeks ago mentioning that when the major competitions are finished his area, East Kerry, play a tournament type competition which keeps the clubs going to Christmas. Armagh clubs who were knocked out in the first round, and that's 50%, have no football for about 6 months.
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What would buy in be like for players? Sounds like a good idea, but I’m sure January to August/September/October training is plenty for most lads. Thats before you start looking round the county for pitches with lights.
 
W

Wide ball

Well-Known Member
ShiftYa said:
So Kerry only have 8 teams total in their senior club championship, Intermediate winner goes up every year while one team gets relegated after losing 2 playoffs. Very cut throat as Austin Stacks got relegated this year.
The Senior championship is comprised of the 8 senior clubs plus 8 divisional sides, Stacks fall into the St Brendan's regional team next year, so 16 team competition.
An argument that 8 senior teams is too few for a senior championship in such a large footballing county is regularly raised but this is usually countered by Kerry folk who argue; to add more teams would dilute the standard of their regional sides.
As you can imagine having your 9th best club side representing you at intermediate provincial and AI level makes them the most successful county at this grade too.
Click to expand...
There championship must be fantastic every year with all teams having a chance it's outside when they get into provincial that it's unfair on other counties. On that note castlerahan won back to back senior cavan titles in 18 and 19 and now are in the Ulster intermediate championship so are worth a punt
 
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