Is it time to consider new management?
- Thread starter ShiftYa
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ragingbull
Well-Known Member
We'll never know that sure we won't
Cavans performances dropped after they beat us. A hell of a lot. The second day they had a day where they couldn’t miss. Doesn’t take anything away from our year
ragingbull
Well-Known Member
Like us Cavan didn't want to be in the super 8s
Too much ŕose tinted glasses on this forum - we could have, should have etc. We only scraped past a poor Down team - could not beat Cavan- beat a Monaghan team who are finished- and lost to Mayo. That was after a poor league performance. Time for change!
JoeH
Well-Known Member
A poor Down team that ran the division 1 league winners to a few points; a Cavan team backboned by numerous U21 titles and division 1 experience (that we should have beaten agreed); beat a Monaghan team that have huge experience in Division 1 and excellent championship form in recent years ; lost narrowly to arguably the second best team in the country over the past 5 years who are now in the super 8s having beaten Galway yesterday.
This year's defeats were all we should have won that game as opposed to could have that game.
In the championship games the reasons for not winning were basically down to individual misses
Against Cavan and Mayo goal chances were missed at times in the game when there probably would have been no way back for the opposition.
Against Monaghan we took most of our scoring opportunities with very few wides.
In the league, bar the Cork game, we should have won all our games.
There is a competitiveness, calmness, systems of play and resolve this year that hasn't been present in 8-9 years.
There were mistakes for sure but which team hasn't done that
For me there has been a huge gain in performance, new players on board, existing players improving, returning players excelling. In years gone by if the same injury list has been present a poor year would have been on the cards
We are very close.
The IN anonymous article has completely backfired on that individual and whatever agenda he is fronting on behalf of others. It's easy to stand in the middle of a group and shout what you like. The hard way is to say the same thing out front and centre.
At this stage coming forward publicly is of no importance - all credibility will have gone especially if that person ever had any aspirations to be part of any future role with the county.
The ironic thing is if the persons name had been made known with the article they would have gained more especially in terms of respect
I didn’t actually say could have it should have did I? And it is undeniable that Cavans performances dropped after they played us.
We got our first Ulster championship win under Geezer. Beat a division 1 team in the qualifiers. When did we last do that. Only lost by a point to the league champions in their back yard and secured division 2 status with a game to spare. I guess it all depends how you look at things. Was it a perfect year? No. Far from it. Could we have done better? Yes. Are there areas for improvement? Yes. Did we improve? Certainly. Time for change? Not this year
Big Jim
Well-Known Member
Down are notoriously difficult for us to beat when they're at home in championship (well almost at home if you go down the "it's mostly in Armagh" route). What was it? 60 odd years since the last win there. Poor maybe, but they had months to prepare for it and were determined to do the same as last year and it almost worked for them. Yep we had the same months to prepare and it worked for us this time around, although it should have been easier in my opinion.
Cavan had just beaten a massively favoured Monaghan, predicted by some to be back in the Ulster final. I never bought that they were that good, but did think they'd win that one. We should have beaten them first day out, in my opinion. Second time of asking we just didn't perform as we should. Blame management all you want, but how many wides and wrong options did they take? Did the make wrong decisions on the line, in my opinion most likely, but point out the management that don't!
The Mayo game described by pundits as "unlucky" for us with some bad shooting, poor decisions and questionable referee decisions.
In my opinion we could/should/would have done better this year if all the planets lined up, but they didn't.
Some have described not winning the ultimate prize in football as a disaster and unacceptable;e requiring change of management etc. So 31 managers get sacked/step down each year.
I proudly wear my rose/orange tinted glasses and have and will follow our teams no matter what and that means no matter what. Don't care who the manager is, full forward, keeper or even the county chairperson. Why?? Because it's sport and not life or death. Some say it costs a lot of money to follow the team to see results like that. No it doesn't. It's free to sit at home and moan when you see or hear the result. I'd rather be accused of wearing the tints, than be a bitter, twisted follower looking excuses to complain.
By the way I don't infer by that Pointman, that, that describes you. Just happens to be your post I quoted to reply to. I fully respect your opinion, but just wanted to express mine with reasons for the difference. I will 100% agree however it is time for change. A change in the backroom and tactics. I'd still call for the addition again of Paul Grimley, but I'd love to know if he'd still want to be part of it. Another great man for the line was Brendan Hughes. He'd add a new dimension too.
Just opinions.
ragingbull
Well-Known Member
Armagh had a good a management team a couple of years with McGeeney,McGrane,McNulty, Hughes but I think other commitments put a end to that
It is all opinions - and everyone is entitled to have one.
Mine is that the management team has not got as much out of the players available as they should have. In particular, poor in game management and an inability to read games and make game changing decisions as well as poor game management when in winning positions. I think a better management team could take the county further.
portadownarmaghfan
Well-Known Member
Too much negativity from some on this forum- pick out the mistakes, ignore the positives etc. We beat Down in Newry for the first time in years - almost beat Cavan - beat last years all Ireland semi finalists- and just fell short to the current national league champions. That was after a league performance where the newbies looked very comfortable at that level. Time to stay calm and start planning for next year!
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Big Jim
Well-Known Member
I disagree. I gave reasons for all my opinions. Point to where I was wrong or not being objective. You did notice that I said "Did they make wrong decisions on the line, in my opinion most likely, but point out the management that don't!" A very clear case of being objective and open to another opinion or point of view which again I hope you noticed when I said to pointman " I fully respect your opinion, but just wanted to express mine with reasons for the difference." I'm assuming you actually read the post before deciding I was wrong.
The problem with trying to be clever with language and saying I wasn't objective is that you have to actually understand what it is that you are trying to say and making sure it is relevant. I can enjoy a debate with @POINTMAN because he gives reasons for his opinion. I may not agree with all of them, but that's what makes each on individual. "Being unable to identify weaknesses and address them."? Where did I mention it being a perfect year without issues. Maybe you didn't notice or read my original post on this thread where I said we actually need changes and outlined an opinion on what I thought might make a change.
I think I'd prefer that than just being argumentative without giving an alternative.
Big Jim
Well-Known Member
Yep and I think most would agree with most of what you say. I've already said I'd like to see more changes in the backroom team, but honestly feel that changing the management "could" be disruptive to the progress made. I could be completely wrong and we might end up back in division 3 and not win a single championship game or qualifier, but until we start with whatever way that turns out over the next few months, we'l not actually know.
Malachy O'Rourke was brought in to a rising Monaghan team and won Ulster, but that was it. They still remain without even an All Ireland final appearance in recent times. Down have changed management regular in the last 20 years, Antrim, Fermanagh, Cavan and Derry have had their shuffles too. Donegal made a change and won an All Ireland title. Will they win another soon? I'm not sure, but don't think so. We had a great run from '99 to '08 and still only won one big prize.
If we had a fantastic track record I could understand the frustrations and clammer for changes, but jesus we have won one All Ireland in over 130 years. If we believe we have a given right to do better, it's 100% not me wearing the tinted glasses. I'm guessing a clean mirror might be needed for some.
MrMaguire2002
Well-Known Member
Kernan or McConville not of the class of Marsden in my opinion.
I don't really care about who wrote the article in the Irish News. It's a glorified tabloid and it shouldn't have been published. At the time Aaron Kernan and one of the McEntees came to mind but its not that relevant to anything.
Totally 50/50 on whether I want Geezer to stay on or not. If McGeeney stays on or say Tony McEntee came in I'd be happy either way.
Patrick-Armagh
Well-Known Member
I think that progress has been made under McGeeney, which at times has been slow, frustrating and littered with mistakes, but overall I think we are in a better position than we were when he took over. We have a strong panel of players, with some quality individuals all over the field, but are lacking in certain areas that makes all the difference and which is difficult for management to rectify. McGeeney's record in Ulster hasn't been good. Some of the losses were expected, others not. We have yo-yo-ed between Division 2 and 3 in his time, but now look like we have established ourselves in Division 2 and next year should be looking to push for promotion. Our inability to see out games that we have been winning easily has been a feature of McGeeney's time in charge and can be put down to a young team learning. But there's only so long you can make that excuse for. At what point does a young team, become an experienced side, who should be acting on their experiences from previous seasons and finishing out games we are leading in? This failure in the team struck us again this season in both league and championship and I don't know how it will be rectified. If McGeeney stays on this is one of the major areas of our team that needs addressed. If it's not, this team will just sputter along, claiming the odd win here and there, but nothing that you can rely on.
I think the question should also be asked about what this team can realistically do in Ulster and beyond and how this shapes people's opinion on McGeeney? We are some way off Tyrone and especially Donegal at the moment. Cavan are slightly ahead of us too (but we should have beaten them on both occasions) and it looks like we have now moved ahead of Monaghan. Depending on what draw we get at the moment, will determine if we can get to an Ulster final. It's an obvious point I know, but if we were to get Donegal away next season in our first match, you'd have to say that we'd be massive underdogs. Would that then reflect badly on McGeeney if we lost it? Similarly we could Antrim at home, with the semi-final against Fermanagh or Derry and then we'd have a great chance of getting to the Ulster final. Would that then reflect well on McGeeney? On our day we can give most teams in Ulster a game, but would we win an Ulster title? Not yet.
On a national scale, it's hard to say where we rank but again the draw can make a massive difference. Cork got relegated to Division 3, they pulled themselves together, stuffed Limerick, gave Kerry a good game, then got two relatively soft draws in the qualifiers and now find themselves in the Super 8. We got the toughest draw you could get and lost by a point. Again, the game was there for the taking and had we that little bit more know how, we would have won. The point is, there's a lot that McGeeney can do and there's other stuff which he has zero control over and the luck of the draw went against us, to have to play Mayo. It went for Cork and they are now in the Super 8's (which is probably where they should be with their resources and playing numbers).
Key injuries and players dropping in and out of the panel at various times and for various reasons hasn't helped things either. We've struggled to get a settled team out consistently and when we have, it hasn't always been great, but we've seen what we can do in flashes. We've seen knew players introduced to the team and other players that have been persisted with that are now showing their worth. It's for this reason, more than others, that I feel that McGeeney should be kept on for another 2 years. He's got a team together (who by all accounts mostly get on with him) and for him to go now and a new man comes in with a new style of play, it's very hard for us to start from scratch again and keep moving forward. Changes to his background team could well make a difference and could play a crucial role in this team really pushing into the top band of teams.
I think the question should also be asked about what this team can realistically do in Ulster and beyond and how this shapes people's opinion on McGeeney? We are some way off Tyrone and especially Donegal at the moment. Cavan are slightly ahead of us too (but we should have beaten them on both occasions) and it looks like we have now moved ahead of Monaghan. Depending on what draw we get at the moment, will determine if we can get to an Ulster final. It's an obvious point I know, but if we were to get Donegal away next season in our first match, you'd have to say that we'd be massive underdogs. Would that then reflect badly on McGeeney if we lost it? Similarly we could Antrim at home, with the semi-final against Fermanagh or Derry and then we'd have a great chance of getting to the Ulster final. Would that then reflect well on McGeeney? On our day we can give most teams in Ulster a game, but would we win an Ulster title? Not yet.
On a national scale, it's hard to say where we rank but again the draw can make a massive difference. Cork got relegated to Division 3, they pulled themselves together, stuffed Limerick, gave Kerry a good game, then got two relatively soft draws in the qualifiers and now find themselves in the Super 8. We got the toughest draw you could get and lost by a point. Again, the game was there for the taking and had we that little bit more know how, we would have won. The point is, there's a lot that McGeeney can do and there's other stuff which he has zero control over and the luck of the draw went against us, to have to play Mayo. It went for Cork and they are now in the Super 8's (which is probably where they should be with their resources and playing numbers).
Key injuries and players dropping in and out of the panel at various times and for various reasons hasn't helped things either. We've struggled to get a settled team out consistently and when we have, it hasn't always been great, but we've seen what we can do in flashes. We've seen knew players introduced to the team and other players that have been persisted with that are now showing their worth. It's for this reason, more than others, that I feel that McGeeney should be kept on for another 2 years. He's got a team together (who by all accounts mostly get on with him) and for him to go now and a new man comes in with a new style of play, it's very hard for us to start from scratch again and keep moving forward. Changes to his background team could well make a difference and could play a crucial role in this team really pushing into the top band of teams.
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A good balanced post.
My only very small query is if, as you say, we have indeed 'established ourselves in Division 2' - only time will tell if we have and if we can push on for Division 1.
I also doubt, given the strength of character - some would say stubbornness - that Geezer has, would a different support team have significant and sufficient influence?
Would a real change e.g. a Rockford, Malachy O'Rourke or McEntee etc bring about that significant improvement that we all want to see?
ragingbull
Well-Known Member
McConville not of the class of Marsden in my opinion.we're going to have to disagree on that Jerry
MrMaguire2002
Well-Known Member
Not a problem. That's what opinions are all about
Patrick-Armagh
Well-Known Member
I think that's a fair question. After two years of being in Division Two and this year showing that we can more than compete at this level, I'd like to think that we are an established team. If we aren't and the players don't think so, there's something wrong. The draws against Kildare and Clare were 2 points dropped that could have made all the difference to us getting promoted. On the one hand we've only ourselves to blame for letting the wins go, but on the other it shows that we are so close to being the team these close games. The question still remains though, how and when will we start winning these games?
In terms of other available managers, there's no doubt that there are some good options about. Jim McGuinness would be another name that you could throw into the hat. It's understandable to look elsewhere when there are some big name managers about and you imagine them taking us to the next level. This is possible. We could also see the team stall for a couple of seasons while they get used to a new style of football. So I think there are potential positives and negatives for both scenarios. I just feel that while the team has been frustratingly inconsistent, McGeeney has done a lot to get us into the position we are and with some tweaks (say McEntee coming in as his number 2), could make all the difference. Equally, you could argue that Malachy O'Rourke (for example) could be the guy to get the team over the hump and back in with the big boys. It also comes down to what McGeeney wants to do and if he feels if he's taken the team as far as he can or not.