Qualifiers 2018
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PutTheHighBallInLow
Active Member
Armagh missed a lot of chances... but that’s what Armagh have done the past 2/3 years... missing easy frees etc. You can’t afford to do it against better opposition- they were lucky to get out of jail.
My impression on absenteeism is that the county as a whole needs to pull in the one direction. I know several people who wished Armagh beaten so they can get their county men back to their clubs to stave off relegation. That is not my opinion, but I’ve heard from several men from several different clubs. That is the resentment and attitude towards the county at the minute. If players were made available to their club for matches, opinions might be different when it comes to commitment. Players get it in the neck from club management, crowds turn up on a Sunday and the first question asked is “are the county men playing today”... followed by a few expletives!!!
Your own club I would suggest a prime example? Caveat I haven’t seen much of the harps this year but their results would suggest the absence of the county men have put them in trouble of relegation... 3 men starting/subs and another 3/4 on the squad? County champions could be relegated the following year. I would suggest that they could be challenging for league honours wth a full pick. The league structure is not reflective of a team capability come championship- with the two connected this year I would have thought this would have even greater importance.
Young players, underage, are inspired by watching county men own the field at club level... county players enjoy owning the field at club level, increasing their confidence when they come to play for the county. Other players at club level rise to marking a county man... the benefits go on but I believe that the current system is not working well for anyone.
Big Jim
Well-Known Member
Careful @Applecore The statement "Armagh missed a lot of chances... but that’s what Armagh have done the past 2/3 years... missing easy frees etc." could be levelled at every county team, in fact every team in any sport. If they didn't it would just become a straight shoot out and if you knew every effort would be scored, sure where would the excitement come from. Golfers miss putts, snooker players miss pots, Darts miss the target, Racing drivers miss an apex and so on.
Look I agree with what you're getting at, but we can't constantly complain about what was missed. It's simple, on Saturday past we came up short and were beaten by a better team/better rested team/more experienced team or whatever we want to call them. We gave all we had and weren't quite good enough. But looking back on it we seem to be learning and evolving. Our one and only win at the top level in '02 didn't come overnight.
1992 the bones of the team came together as a minor team with little success for a few years. 1998 the two Brian's got a team with potential and the MacRory winning team of the early 90's was the framework for the new team.
This current team has lads in it with success at under age, experienced campaigners and the potential from our U20 team and the MacRory teams including of course St. Ronan's, St. Pat's, Bessbrook and St. Colman's among others. We can look forward with confidence, as long as careful management of these players is employed.
As for players missing club games, as much as it may be annoying, there's nothing new or unique in the Armagh situation. I'm good friends with folk from Clontibret. They've 4 county players and are managing to continue playing league games "without" their players and having mixed results. Crossmaglen did it in the early 2000's when we had a high profile in county, managing to win All Ireland titles along the way with the county having to endure league campaigns without very high profile players. Where I'm 100% behind your sentiment is with squad players that have little more than a cameo or zero appearance at county level. Why not let them play every week for their club to remain match fit and sharp?
From now until the Ulster Championship restarts next year (or a week before the first game as an example) what could possibly be wrong with saying to ALL county players, "ok so your club trains on a Tuesday evening (and this could be easily co-ordinated between club and county with a meeting and agreement so we're all singing off the same hymn sheet) and all players are with their clubs on Tuesday evenings. County players can bring training ideas to the clubs - shouldn't be a bloody secret what they're doing in training if we want consistency, and everyone can be together on one point. County men are available with clubs until the championship. Obvious exception of course is the week before national league games, but this shouldn't be an issue as club leagues don't normally start until the NFL is over. Bonding weekends (or players getting a free jollyday if you prefer) would notified to the county board and therefore clubs, in early to mid January so again everyone can make plans.
None of that is radical, none of it is rocket science. It just involves communication. If geezer is too shy to do that, there are plenty of capable people around him. I know Paul Kelly with the team is a fantastic organiser. Can anyone tell us what exactly the county PRO does?? I happen to know that they don't even do Twitter on match days - well maybe once or twice a year
Look I agree with what you're getting at, but we can't constantly complain about what was missed. It's simple, on Saturday past we came up short and were beaten by a better team/better rested team/more experienced team or whatever we want to call them. We gave all we had and weren't quite good enough. But looking back on it we seem to be learning and evolving. Our one and only win at the top level in '02 didn't come overnight.
1992 the bones of the team came together as a minor team with little success for a few years. 1998 the two Brian's got a team with potential and the MacRory winning team of the early 90's was the framework for the new team.
This current team has lads in it with success at under age, experienced campaigners and the potential from our U20 team and the MacRory teams including of course St. Ronan's, St. Pat's, Bessbrook and St. Colman's among others. We can look forward with confidence, as long as careful management of these players is employed.
As for players missing club games, as much as it may be annoying, there's nothing new or unique in the Armagh situation. I'm good friends with folk from Clontibret. They've 4 county players and are managing to continue playing league games "without" their players and having mixed results. Crossmaglen did it in the early 2000's when we had a high profile in county, managing to win All Ireland titles along the way with the county having to endure league campaigns without very high profile players. Where I'm 100% behind your sentiment is with squad players that have little more than a cameo or zero appearance at county level. Why not let them play every week for their club to remain match fit and sharp?
From now until the Ulster Championship restarts next year (or a week before the first game as an example) what could possibly be wrong with saying to ALL county players, "ok so your club trains on a Tuesday evening (and this could be easily co-ordinated between club and county with a meeting and agreement so we're all singing off the same hymn sheet) and all players are with their clubs on Tuesday evenings. County players can bring training ideas to the clubs - shouldn't be a bloody secret what they're doing in training if we want consistency, and everyone can be together on one point. County men are available with clubs until the championship. Obvious exception of course is the week before national league games, but this shouldn't be an issue as club leagues don't normally start until the NFL is over. Bonding weekends (or players getting a free jollyday if you prefer) would notified to the county board and therefore clubs, in early to mid January so again everyone can make plans.
None of that is radical, none of it is rocket science. It just involves communication. If geezer is too shy to do that, there are plenty of capable people around him. I know Paul Kelly with the team is a fantastic organiser. Can anyone tell us what exactly the county PRO does?? I happen to know that they don't even do Twitter on match days - well maybe once or twice a year
JoeH
Well-Known Member
How can players with a county squad play for their clubs especially given how frequent the county games came there in the back door setup?
I think the club season needs to be separate to the county season
I also agree that the current setup is not conducive towards clubs missing their county players - ,the linking of league to championship creates pressure on clubs and players.
Ultimately I think the time has come that county players are that and clubs should not expect to have them playing until championship.
Rufus T Firefly
Well-Known Member
No they weren't. In fact, they were the opposite of lucky. The win was based on the qualities that we would hope for within any team we support. Totally against the odds, on the brink of defeat, and then producing one last unbelievable effort, showing pride and self belief, to draw level with an opponent and then overcome them.
I have no issue with anyone saying that a lot of our performance that day was littered with basic, basic errors, and that for me has been the hallmark of a lot of our play in recent years and that is why I would ask that many of our supporters should reflect on the true capabilities of our players when considering where we should be. But the victory itself was nothing but a credit to the team and the management. To deny that suggests that you are pursuing your own narrative.
I have already agreed with you on the issue of absenteeism and availability of players and I believe that will indeed come into greater focus as the impacts on league positions and thus Championship seedings becomes more apparent.
Big Jim
Well-Known Member
And therein lies our position. We are not Leitrim, Carlow, Dublin, Meath, Cork, Donegal, Monaghan, Mayo or any other team we care to mention. We have a team and support we are proud of. We're not the strongest nor the weakest in the country, but the current pecking order puts us top 12. I firmly believe that we may well have given any of the others over the weekend a real run for their money and then we'd be having a different debate going into this weekend. Cork were an embarrassment to watch, Laois capitulated and Fermanagh, well most could have beaten them with their game on the day.
We're at our level in our position and will improve. I remember saying back in the day on the old forum that small steps forward mean less to fall back and I was ridiculed by a renowned know arguer. What would I know? We needed massive strides forward they said! Really? I'm happy that we are doing this well with the hand we have. A ten of hearts is our best card and maybe an Ace up the sleeve, but we will improve. Patience!!
cast no shadow
Member
I agree a lot of what is said regarding county players and club games! I agree the championship must be separate, there should be no seeding! I also agree that squad players should be available for more Games! I do not however agree with the suggestion that county players should train with club players on say a Tuesday night! Most club players are very committed and very dedicated, however up and down the county over the past month I can guarantee that on some training nights there was 12-14 at attendance. Unfortunately there is a different level!! Training blocks are scheduled at completely different times, it would be impossible sync these and the players would clearly suffer from issues such as overload. In my experience as a coach. I was a little happier when county players where handed back over to me because I had reservations about conflicting with an other coach’s periodisation approach. Injury prevention and player welfare must be at the forefront of good coach planning!
I have heard the disregard from club men!! I always found this a little strange and have been uncomfortable with this! Derry is a prime example of this attitude, the the extent where a lot of players have not committed because of this negativity! Div 4 my friends! Also again on my experience when a county team does get beat in championship some of the lads go away to the states for a month or so! You never really get them until the championship!
The harps have had a really tough year, I know a lot of good harps men, real gaels, who love their club, I have not heard one say I hope Armagh’s beat!
I have heard the disregard from club men!! I always found this a little strange and have been uncomfortable with this! Derry is a prime example of this attitude, the the extent where a lot of players have not committed because of this negativity! Div 4 my friends! Also again on my experience when a county team does get beat in championship some of the lads go away to the states for a month or so! You never really get them until the championship!
The harps have had a really tough year, I know a lot of good harps men, real gaels, who love their club, I have not heard one say I hope Armagh’s beat!
Yeah maybe just as well not to be in the Super 8’s as the team is well off it. They would be very tired going into a game v Tyrone today and could have shipped a heavy defeat
William Of Orange
Well-Known Member
I would positively say looking at the match today no good would have come from us being in the super 8 we are just not ready , hopefully we build slowly over the next couple of years so we can compete .
Agreed and that’s no criticism of the team. They are where they are with the personnel available. I think they over achieved getting as far as they did and in many ways the ball bounced nicely in terms of the draw. Watch the games and see what is needed for next year
JoeH
Well-Known Member
How the f#ck did they over achieve? Absolutely incredulous statement to make.
Armagh played in the.Ulster championship v Fermanagh and were very poor.
They entered the qualifier series and were drawn against teams but lost to Roscommon at the last hurdle before the super 8s.
Monaghan beat Tyrone and lost to Fermanagh in the ulster championship. They entered the qualifiers and beat Laois to enter the super 8s.
Have they over achieved?
Armagh were expected to beat the teams they faced in the qualifiers up until drawn against Roscommon and yet with a little luck could have won.
Why are we so anti our county team doing well, regardless how it happens?
JoeH
Well-Known Member
On a totally different strand:
Its time a rule was brought in that once you cross the opposition's 65 you cannot come back across that line unless the opposition have touched the ball
It means more direct play and none of that sh#te Dublin were at today
In soccer they implemented something like this years ago by.not allowing a backpass to the goalkeeper being picked up. They recognised that teams could keep doing this to run the clock down
Its time a rule was brought in that once you cross the opposition's 65 you cannot come back across that line unless the opposition have touched the ball
It means more direct play and none of that sh#te Dublin were at today
In soccer they implemented something like this years ago by.not allowing a backpass to the goalkeeper being picked up. They recognised that teams could keep doing this to run the clock down
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We were debating on the way to match last week if Armagh would be better winning or losing. Tyrone gave a lesson on how to win matches. The game was over after 20 minutes and it was hard to watch. Given personnel available odds are they would have done same to Armagh.
On a separate note physically Tyrone seem much stronger and fitter than most teams.
On a separate note physically Tyrone seem much stronger and fitter than most teams.
PatMustard
Well-Known Member
Jaysus that was puke tonight.
Playing against thon shite, you'd be mighty tempted to chuck some bollix into the stand.
JoeH
Well-Known Member
And some of these pundits would want county players to train a few nights a week and play club football all the time because generations ago thats tge way it was.
You dont get that level of fitness overnight. It takes a few years of good, smart training and the buy in of the player.
Suil eile.
Active Member
You had to wait to today ????
Dublin done exactly what they needed to do. The onus was on Donegal to press them and get the ball back. They wouldn’t.