Qualifiers 2018

bcb1

Well-Known Member
How the f#ck did they over achieve? Absolutely incredulous statement to make.
Armagh played in the.Ulster championship v Fermanagh and were very poor.
They entered the qualifier series and were drawn against teams but lost to Roscommon at the last hurdle before the super 8s.
Monaghan beat Tyrone and lost to Fermanagh in the ulster championship. They entered the qualifiers and beat Laois to enter the super 8s.
Have they over achieved?
Armagh were expected to beat the teams they faced in the qualifiers up until drawn against Roscommon and yet with a little luck could have won.

Why are we so anti our county team doing well, regardless how it happens?

I’m not anti-county. I’m one of the few in this site that proudly wore the jersey, albeit at minor and u21, and I would back them to the hilt. That doesn’t mean I’m blind. They overachieved in terms of where they would have been expected to go after the Fermanagh game. Like I said the ball bounced kindly and that allowed the run happen easier. There’s nothing wrong with saying that. I may be seen by some fans as Over critical but I see things for what they are. We have structural problems within the county and have had for 2 generations of All Ireland winning under age teams. We will lose another generation of quality if the issues are not rectified. Geezer is not the issue, the structure is as previous managers have not gotten the mos out of the quality within the county.
 

Rufus T Firefly

Well-Known Member
Our match against Roscommon reminded me to an extent of the first Belgium v England game in the World Cup - winning brought on a host of problems. Roscommon were better than us last day out and just got the mother of all tankings. I am very, very relieved that we did not beat them last week. We would have been subject to a very painful defeat.

Just on yesterday's match, Roscommon were abject - they seemes to throw in the towel from a long distance out - and Tyrone simply did as they wanted. They will have bigger tests ahead - next week as an example - which will give an idea of what they are capable of, but they do seem to have come on big time since the fright they got in Navan.
 

PutTheHighBallInLow

Active Member
On a totally different strand:

Its time a rule was brought in that once you cross the opposition's 65 you cannot come back across that line unless the opposition have touched the ball

It means more direct play and none of that sh#te Dublin were at today

In soccer they implemented something like this years ago by.not allowing a backpass to the goalkeeper being picked up. They recognised that teams could keep doing this to run the clock down
If Dublin are playing shite what hope is there for gaelic football.
Great idea for a new rule, it would mean more frees, slowing up an already steadily growing slow game, how about banning sweepers and in some cases double sweepers.
You see the problem for a team that plays a system like Donegals, is they always have to be leading or 1-2 scores off the lead, and when this is the case their system works fine, when they fall further behind a team like Dublin know the onus is on the opposition to chase the game.
Donegal weren't really doing that, so its Dublins fault ???
 
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JoeH

Well-Known Member
I’m not anti-county. I’m one of the few in this site that proudly wore the jersey, albeit at minor and u21, and I would back them to the hilt. That doesn’t mean I’m blind. They overachieved in terms of where they would have been expected to go after the Fermanagh game. Like I said the ball bounced kindly and that allowed the run happen easier. There’s nothing wrong with saying that. I may be seen by some fans as Over critical but I see things for what they are. We have structural problems within the county and have had for 2 generations of All Ireland winning under age teams. We will lose another generation of quality if the issues are not rectified. Geezer is not the issue, the structure is as previous managers have not gotten the mos out of the quality within the county.
Whats the structural issues?
Does clubs telling players not to go to county part of it?
Havent we now a strong senior championship where 4-5 clubs could win it as opposed to one?
Is it schools? Development squads? Club coaches not good enough generally ? County coaches not good enough? Too many people willing to stand outside the wire and give out as opposed to helping out but then you have all this paperwork.involved now when taking teams.
Personally I'd make it mandatory for all club coaches too attend a minimum of two workshops per year, cut the numbers attending development squads and if those chosen dont play for their clubs they are dropped of that squad.
 
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JoeH

Well-Known Member
A couple of super 8 observations:
1. No games should be played in Croke Park until the semi-finals. Smaller venues, better crowds, better atmosphere
2. Should be expanded to 16 teams, 4 groups of four. Composed of a provincial winner, a provincial loser and two teams that come through the back door. Provincial winner must get two games at home.
Top two teams qualify for q/f.
Team that finishes top of each group plays at home venue, if they wish
3. Remember that the players are amateur
4. Media commentators remind themselves of number 3
 

bcb1

Well-Known Member
A couple of super 8 observations:
1. No games should be played in Croke Park until the semi-finals. Smaller venues, better crowds, better atmosphere
2. Should be expanded to 16 teams, 4 groups of four. Composed of a provincial winner, a provincial loser and two teams that come through the back door. Provincial winner must get two games at home.
Top two teams qualify for q/f.
Team that finishes top of each group plays at home venue, if they wish
3. Remember that the players are amateur
4. Media commentators remind themselves of number 3


Where do the clubs fit games in round the added fixtures that this will create?
 

JoeH

Well-Known Member
Where do the clubs fit games in round the added fixtures that this will create?
Clubs just keep playing. Why should 25 club players sit at home when one or two of their players are not there?
Alternatively the club season ends before the county season starts or vice versa
 

Big Jim

Well-Known Member
Clubs just keep playing. Why should 25 club players sit at home when one or two of their players are not there?
Alternatively the club season ends before the county season starts or vice versa
Unfortunately that scenario would have a lot of players sitting around for a long time or training their knackers off for a short burst of games. Then you'd get the cry that "remember the county players are club players and they have a long season now". Again the usual, you'll never have one size fits all solution.

My main observation though would be, we can't really judge the effectiveness of the change after just one round. It needs a few years to see what affect it has. Having said all that, I hate the idea of the super 8s as ultimately it promotes elitism within our parochial system. Being a county player is bad enough.
 

Big Jim

Well-Known Member
Sort of carrying on from the last post, had an interesting conversation yesterday that made me wonder too, how many if any of the Dublin players do we hear of playing for "their" clubs? I'm not suggesting they don't, just I never [well rarely anyway] hear talk of it or see any references to it.
 

PutTheHighBallInLow

Active Member
If Dublin bt Tyrone and
Clubs just keep playing. Why should 25 club players sit at home when one or two of their players are not there?
Alternatively the club season ends before the county season starts or vice versa
What about all the panel players who never get a kick for the county, ??
 

Big Jim

Well-Known Member
County men in Dublin were playing for their clubs in a few televised matches shown earlier in the year. Think this match was one of them

http://www.the42.ie/ballymun-kickhams-st-brigids-report-3958157-Apr2018/
Cheers.

I had assumed they might play in championship, but just wondered about league games. Only just curious because of the debate that goes on in Ulster Counties about it. I suppose with Dublin being so vast and populated, with so many players from other counties working and "playing" there it makes it different, hence the curiosity. Thanks for the reply.
 

Patrick-Armagh

Well-Known Member
Ok, nobody has asked it yet. So I am...

Would you welcome the opt-outers (Clarke, Campbell, Morgan etc) back in 2019 with open arms?

Reluctantly? Definitely not? 100% welcome back?

I know my answer. Just want to hear others.

(Btw, I'm not trying to start a shitstorm or a slanging match here. Just trying to get a feel for this issue).

Playing county football is a big commitment and in doing it, you put your life on hold in many aspects. This could be in terms of your family, your career or personal development and experiences. Players who have opted off the panel for various reasons, shouldn't be castigated for it and their re-introduction to the panel should be based on merit, playing well for their clubs, with them accepting that they aren't guaranteed anything and others who've stayed around should get the first chance to impress management in retaining their place. Anything else, in my opinion, just creates a scenario of resentment and jealousy that can infect a team. If you're a player who has worked extremely hard over the last year, trying to break into the team and then a player who took off comes back and walks straight back into the team, what does that do for team morale? Yeah you might be stronger on paper, but you have weakened the inner workings of a team spirit that takes so much to build.

I think it also depends on how leaving a panel is done. If as a player, you know that in a year or two, you'll want to go traveling or move away for a time, if you let the management know so they can plan for the time without you, or if they think it's best that you aren't on the team, to develop someone else, then I don't have a problem. Or if you need to take time out for personal or career reasons, again, I don't think that this should be an issue. If they are playing well enough for their clubs and get an invite to the county team, they should have to the same amount of work as everyone else to prove they are better than who is starting. What does bother me, is how one player seems to come and go and is welcomed back time and again and due to his immense talent, slots straight back into the team. I don't know anything about his personal circumstances, but I do find it odd how one minute you can return after a few years away, proclaiming your love for the county and how you're back for good and want to prove yourself and take Armagh to the next level and then when Armagh have the best season they've has in years and it looks like we have good foundations to build on, you leave again. Again, I fully accept that people's personal circumstances change, you get job offers that don't fall in line with the county season, playing football isn't the be-all and end-all, it won't pay your bills and is only a game, so if you want to leave, then I have no problem with it, but I don't think that the slate should just be wiped clean if this consistently happens, next time you take an interest in playing county football, no matter how talented you are. This may seem naive, as we don't have an abundance of top players to pick from, but that's just my thoughts on the matter and isn't intended as attack on any player.

As for the season, I think overall it's been positive, but with one major disappointment. We played well in the league, winning Division Three and gaining promotion. It's vital that we play at a higher level if we are to progress. I think that the players are good enough to be in the top 10-12 teams in the country and playing in Division Two against better opposition will bring our players on. The emergence 0f new and fringe players as well as players developing further and really putting their stamp on the team has been really pleasing to see. Patrick Burns has been a real find and gives us more depth in the squad with the likes of Hughes to come back from injury and Morgan returning if he does well for Cross. Aaron McKay looks like a long term player at full back, which has allowed Charlie Vernon to move back to midfield. Gregory McCabe has become a really fine player. Connaire Mackin has come from nowhere and looks a real talent. Brendan Donaghy continues to be a rock for us. Stephen Sheridan and Niall Grimley have had good seasons and continue to drive the team on. Ethan Rafferty was having a good season until injury. Ryan McShane bought real pace and invention into the team. Jemar Hall really stepped up in the last few games to show his ability. Andrew Murnin had an injury free season and is pure class. Rory Grugan showed that he's a really special player. That's just naming a few and not mentioning some of the U20's who have come through and are challenging for places. Add in players that may come back and we have a healthy squad of players to work with.

However, we need to translate that optimism into getting our hump in the Ulster Championship. That Fermanagh game was awful. Yes players had off days and some of them are still inexperienced championship level and Fermanagh went onto to prove how difficult they are to beat. But another loss and another dire performance is a worry, that can't just be glossed over each time it happens. Next year we could draw Donegal in Ballybofey, Tyrone in Omagh or Monaghan in Clones, and we'll be up against it again. The qualifier run, like last season was welcome and restored some joy and pride. In Westmeath and Sligo we got the rights teams, to build winning momentum against, before playing a very good Clare side. The courage shown in that game to win it at the death was brilliant to see. Against Roscommon, we played some great football and for a bit of luck could have won it. But Roscommon had a bit too much for us in the end and showed how playing at a higher level stands to you at this stage of the season. We did look extremely open in that game and had we gone through to the Super 8's, who we would have faired would be a worry. This is something that will need to be worked on for next season - how to we play attacking football, but which doesn't leave us exposed at the back.

There's much to be positive about, while also having a few question marks going forward.
 

portadownarmaghfan

Well-Known Member
Playing county football is a big commitment and in doing it, you put your life on hold in many aspects. This could be in terms of your family, your career or personal development and experiences. Players who have opted off the panel for various reasons, shouldn't be castigated for it and their re-introduction to the panel should be based on merit, playing well for their clubs, with them accepting that they aren't guaranteed anything and others who've stayed around should get the first chance to impress management in retaining their place. Anything else, in my opinion, just creates a scenario of resentment and jealousy that can infect a team. If you're a player who has worked extremely hard over the last year, trying to break into the team and then a player who took off comes back and walks straight back into the team, what does that do for team morale? Yeah you might be stronger on paper, but you have weakened the inner workings of a team spirit that takes so much to build.

I think it also depends on how leaving a panel is done. If as a player, you know that in a year or two, you'll want to go traveling or move away for a time, if you let the management know so they can plan for the time without you, or if they think it's best that you aren't on the team, to develop someone else, then I don't have a problem. Or if you need to take time out for personal or career reasons, again, I don't think that this should be an issue. If they are playing well enough for their clubs and get an invite to the county team, they should have to the same amount of work as everyone else to prove they are better than who is starting. What does bother me, is how one player seems to come and go and is welcomed back time and again and due to his immense talent, slots straight back into the team. I don't know anything about his personal circumstances, but I do find it odd how one minute you can return after a few years away, proclaiming your love for the county and how you're back for good and want to prove yourself and take Armagh to the next level and then when Armagh have the best season they've has in years and it looks like we have good foundations to build on, you leave again. Again, I fully accept that people's personal circumstances change, you get job offers that don't fall in line with the county season, playing football isn't the be-all and end-all, it won't pay your bills and is only a game, so if you want to leave, then I have no problem with it, but I don't think that the slate should just be wiped clean if this consistently happens, next time you take an interest in playing county football, no matter how talented you are. This may seem naive, as we don't have an abundance of top players to pick from, but that's just my thoughts on the matter and isn't intended as attack on any player.

As for the season, I think overall it's been positive, but with one major disappointment. We played well in the league, winning Division Three and gaining promotion. It's vital that we play at a higher level if we are to progress. I think that the players are good enough to be in the top 10-12 teams in the country and playing in Division Two against better opposition will bring our players on. The emergence 0f new and fringe players as well as players developing further and really putting their stamp on the team has been really pleasing to see. Patrick Burns has been a real find and gives us more depth in the squad with the likes of Hughes to come back from injury and Morgan returning if he does well for Cross. Aaron McKay looks like a long term player at full back, which has allowed Charlie Vernon to move back to midfield. Gregory McCabe has become a really fine player. Connaire Mackin has come from nowhere and looks a real talent. Brendan Donaghy continues to be a rock for us. Stephen Sheridan and Niall Grimley have had good seasons and continue to drive the team on. Ethan Rafferty was having a good season until injury. Ryan McShane bought real pace and invention into the team. Jemar Hall really stepped up in the last few games to show his ability. Andrew Murnin had an injury free season and is pure class. Rory Grugan showed that he's a really special player. That's just naming a few and not mentioning some of the U20's who have come through and are challenging for places. Add in players that may come back and we have a healthy squad of players to work with.

However, we need to translate that optimism into getting our hump in the Ulster Championship. That Fermanagh game was awful. Yes players had off days and some of them are still inexperienced championship level and Fermanagh went onto to prove how difficult they are to beat. But another loss and another dire performance is a worry, that can't just be glossed over each time it happens. Next year we could draw Donegal in Ballybofey, Tyrone in Omagh or Monaghan in Clones, and we'll be up against it again. The qualifier run, like last season was welcome and restored some joy and pride. In Westmeath and Sligo we got the rights teams, to build winning momentum against, before playing a very good Clare side. The courage shown in that game to win it at the death was brilliant to see. Against Roscommon, we played some great football and for a bit of luck could have won it. But Roscommon had a bit too much for us in the end and showed how playing at a higher level stands to you at this stage of the season. We did look extremely open in that game and had we gone through to the Super 8's, who we would have faired would be a worry. This is something that will need to be worked on for next season - how to we play attacking football, but which doesn't leave us exposed at the back.

There's much to be positive about, while also having a few question marks going forward.

Sorry, what was that?
 

POINTMAN

Well-Known Member
Playing county football is a big commitment and in doing it, you put your life on hold in many aspects. This could be in terms of your family, your career or personal development and experiences. Players who have opted off the panel for various reasons, shouldn't be castigated for it and their re-introduction to the panel should be based on merit, playing well for their clubs, with them accepting that they aren't guaranteed anything and others who've stayed around should get the first chance to impress management in retaining their place. Anything else, in my opinion, just creates a scenario of resentment and jealousy that can infect a team. If you're a player who has worked extremely hard over the last year, trying to break into the team and then a player who took off comes back and walks straight back into the team, what does that do for team morale? Yeah you might be stronger on paper, but you have weakened the inner workings of a team spirit that takes so much to build.

I think it also depends on how leaving a panel is done. If as a player, you know that in a year or two, you'll want to go traveling or move away for a time, if you let the management know so they can plan for the time without you, or if they think it's best that you aren't on the team, to develop someone else, then I don't have a problem. Or if you need to take time out for personal or career reasons, again, I don't think that this should be an issue. If they are playing well enough for their clubs and get an invite to the county team, they should have to the same amount of work as everyone else to prove they are better than who is starting. What does bother me, is how one player seems to come and go and is welcomed back time and again and due to his immense talent, slots straight back into the team. I don't know anything about his personal circumstances, but I do find it odd how one minute you can return after a few years away, proclaiming your love for the county and how you're back for good and want to prove yourself and take Armagh to the next level and then when Armagh have the best season they've has in years and it looks like we have good foundations to build on, you leave again. Again, I fully accept that people's personal circumstances change, you get job offers that don't fall in line with the county season, playing football isn't the be-all and end-all, it won't pay your bills and is only a game, so if you want to leave, then I have no problem with it, but I don't think that the slate should just be wiped clean if this consistently happens, next time you take an interest in playing county football, no matter how talented you are. This may seem naive, as we don't have an abundance of top players to pick from, but that's just my thoughts on the matter and isn't intended as attack on any player.

As for the season, I think overall it's been positive, but with one major disappointment. We played well in the league, winning Division Three and gaining promotion. It's vital that we play at a higher level if we are to progress. I think that the players are good enough to be in the top 10-12 teams in the country and playing in Division Two against better opposition will bring our players on. The emergence 0f new and fringe players as well as players developing further and really putting their stamp on the team has been really pleasing to see. Patrick Burns has been a real find and gives us more depth in the squad with the likes of Hughes to come back from injury and Morgan returning if he does well for Cross. Aaron McKay looks like a long term player at full back, which has allowed Charlie Vernon to move back to midfield. Gregory McCabe has become a really fine player. Connaire Mackin has come from nowhere and looks a real talent. Brendan Donaghy continues to be a rock for us. Stephen Sheridan and Niall Grimley have had good seasons and continue to drive the team on. Ethan Rafferty was having a good season until injury. Ryan McShane bought real pace and invention into the team. Jemar Hall really stepped up in the last few games to show his ability. Andrew Murnin had an injury free season and is pure class. Rory Grugan showed that he's a really special player. That's just naming a few and not mentioning some of the U20's who have come through and are challenging for places. Add in players that may come back and we have a healthy squad of players to work with.

However, we need to translate that optimism into getting our hump in the Ulster Championship. That Fermanagh game was awful. Yes players had off days and some of them are still inexperienced championship level and Fermanagh went onto to prove how difficult they are to beat. But another loss and another dire performance is a worry, that can't just be glossed over each time it happens. Next year we could draw Donegal in Ballybofey, Tyrone in Omagh or Monaghan in Clones, and we'll be up against it again. The qualifier run, like last season was welcome and restored some joy and pride. In Westmeath and Sligo we got the rights teams, to build winning momentum against, before playing a very good Clare side. The courage shown in that game to win it at the death was brilliant to see. Against Roscommon, we played some great football and for a bit of luck could have won it. But Roscommon had a bit too much for us in the end and showed how playing at a higher level stands to you at this stage of the season. We did look extremely open in that game and had we gone through to the Super 8's, who we would have faired would be a worry. This is something that will need to be worked on for next season - how to we play attacking football, but which doesn't leave us exposed at the back.

There's much to be positive about, while also having a few question marks going forward.
Could you explain that again please?
 

Patrick-Armagh

Well-Known Member
Football is big commitment. Players have lives 2. Need 2 play well for clubs before getting back on team. Show same commitment as others on panel. Positives and negatives from season. Good squad of players. Promotion good. Fermanagh bad. Qualifiers good. Played well against Roscommon. Here's to next season. The end.
 

thecritic

Well-Known Member
Football is big commitment. Players have lives 2. Need 2 play well for clubs before getting back on team. Show same commitment as others on panel. Positives and negatives from season. Good squad of players. Promotion good. Fermanagh bad. Qualifiers good. Played well against Roscommon. Here's to next season. The end.

Was able to read this post in one sitting :)
 

weeskitter

Member
Lads I’ve known Kieran McGeeney personally for longer than some people on this forum have been alive. He sat on my fathers knee on New Years Eve 1991 in our living room drinking Harvey Wallbangers and singing till dawn. He and his family have been friends to our family for years. Many people don’t know this but before he moved to mullaghbawn he lived in Creggan and could just as easily have played for Us or the Bridge.

My issue is with the successive failures of Armagh management to utilise the real quality footballers in our county and essentially under achieve in my view. There have been many reasons why this has been the case. In fact I actually think this team overachieved in getting where they did given the position they were in after Fermanagh and all involved deserve credit for that. I have been consistent in my feelings and I believe there are people in key positions who have a lot of influence and are under performing. I don’t include geezer in that. I believe the overall coaching for all the teams is bloated with former players from 2002 and a lot of yes men. I think that there needs to be a root and branch overhaul to reinvigorate the schools football following in from the success of St Ronans.
I also believe that the lack of swim in the Ulster Championship for the last number of years is a very poor reflection on the quality of the players that are in the county. The end of each season is the time for reflection. I would urge the county management as a whole, from u17 upwards to review their year and mark themselves out of 10 honestly and then use the next 6 months to rectify what has gone wrong and build upon what has gone right.
So he was 19/20 sitting on your fathers knee??
 
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