Ulster Club championship

Have Armagh a chance in Ulster at any grade this Year?

  • Senior

    Votes: 12 50.0%
  • Intermediate

    Votes: 10 41.7%
  • Junior

    Votes: 3 12.5%
  • None

    Votes: 7 29.2%

  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .

Kem

Active Member
Clones did win the junior championship. I dunno but I really think Armagh club football could do with having less teams in senior and less in intermediate. If you had 8 or 12 in each it would be more competitive and teams would compete better in Ulster
Kerry have a big advantage at intermediate level with only 8 senior clubs in the county. That means the 9th best club in the county represents them when for example in Armagh it is the 17th.
 

Wide ball

Active Member
Another very poor year for our club representatives in Ulster. Ally this trend with our woeful recent record at both intercounty underage grades, and it paints a worrying picture about the health of football in the county.

The senior intercounty team have made progress in the last couple of seasons, but is all this good work built on foundations of sand?
It is odd that the senior team is doing well and has some good young players when the club game and the underage scene here has been terrible for 7/8 years
 

armaghlad

Active Member
Hard luck to all 3, club football in Armagh is miles behind other counties though. Shanes were completely outclassed and bullied I thought and should have been beaten by more. Year or 2 too soon for that Cross team as good as they undoubtedly are. Possible change of management there?

In fairness to our intermediate/junior teams with the way some other counties championships are structured, teams that are really division 1 or 2 standard end up in a lower championship, although our record is brutal in Ulster. Not good all 3 teams losing at home especially!
I don’t think we are miles behind on the club scene. Like you say some counties have Division 2 reps featuring at JFC level (Fermanagh, Cavan & Donegal). I’m sure if Armagh changed our 2B to “Junior” let some of those clubs represent us at Junior level we’d see some progress.
 

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
I don’t think we are miles behind on the club scene. Like you say some counties have Division 2 reps featuring at JFC level (Fermanagh, Cavan & Donegal). I’m sure if Armagh changed our 2B to “Junior” let some of those clubs represent us at Junior level we’d see some progress.
Outside of Cross, how would any of our senior teams get on in say Down or Tyrones senior league? Would be well off the better teams I think
 

Wide ball

Active Member
Outside of Cross, how would any of our senior teams get on in say Down or Tyrones senior league? Would be well off the better teams I think
I agree with this. Donegal and Derry outside cross would be way off. I think a few of the club teams would need to join for the size of county and population of people we have too many clubs. In saying that I look forward to see how cullyhanna get on at intermediate level with the under 21 wins a few years back and with their forward line. Would still be senior only for the count lads gone
 

PatMustard

Well-Known Member
Sweepstake, anyone?


 

armaghlad

Active Member
Outside of Cross, how would any of our senior teams get on in say Down or Tyrones senior league? Would be well off the better teams I think
I don’t buy into the mystic around Tyrone football. It’s good, don’t get me wrong, but they’re all at the same level and they can all beat each other on any given day. Funnily enough, they all get beat as soon they set foot in Ulster. Same with Down. What’s makes Down football so special? No one can beat Kilcoo who have dominated for 10+ years.
 
I don’t think we are miles behind on the club scene. Like you say some counties have Division 2 reps featuring at JFC level (Fermanagh, Cavan & Donegal). I’m sure if Armagh changed our 2B to “Junior” let some of those clubs represent us at Junior level we’d see some progress.
We are miles behind, especially at intermediate and junior level.

There has never been an Armagh winner of the Ulster Intermediate Championship - the only county in the province to fail to provide at least one winner over the 20 odd years of the competition's existence. Worse than that, no Armagh club has even won a game at this level since Cullaville all the way back in 2011 - 12 seasons ago!

The county preforms little better at Junior level, with APM's success in 2012 the only achievement of note. Clubs from the county have managed a combined total of 3 wins in the 9 seasons since then, with 6 first round exits.

The county (read Cross) used to compete well at senior level, but even at this level we've slipped back significantly. Senior clubs have won just 6 games between them in Ulster over the last decade, with 3 of those coming in Cross' 2015 provincial success. There have been 5 first round exits in that time, with Clann Eireann (2021), Cross (2018) & Maghery (2016) all on the end of big semi-final beatings even after managing to edge through a first round game.

It's gone beyond failing to compete with counties like Tyrone & Monaghan with strong club scenes, Armagh clubs have barely competed with anyone in recent years. This across the board drop off is alarming, and would leave you wondering where the county side is headed in the medium to long term.
 

Wide ball

Active Member
We are miles behind, especially at intermediate and junior level.

There has never been an Armagh winner of the Ulster Intermediate Championship - the only county in the province to fail to provide at least one winner over the 20 odd years of the competition's existence. Worse than that, no Armagh club has even won a game at this level since Cullaville all the way back in 2011 - 12 seasons ago!

The county preforms little better at Junior level, with APM's success in 2012 the only achievement of note. Clubs from the county have managed a combined total of 3 wins in the 9 seasons since then, with 6 first round exits.

The county (read Cross) used to compete well at senior level, but even at this level we've slipped back significantly. Senior clubs have won just 6 games between them in Ulster over the last decade, with 3 of those coming in Cross' 2015 provincial success. There have been 5 first round exits in that time, with Clann Eireann (2021), Cross (2018) & Maghery (2016) all on the end of big semi-final beatings even after managing to edge through a first round game.

It's gone beyond failing to compete with counties like Tyrone & Monaghan with strong club scenes, Armagh clubs have barely competed with anyone in recent years. This across the board drop off is alarming, and would leave you wondering where the county side is headed in the medium to long term.
It is actually scary when you look at that. But I'm convinced it's the way the league's are structured and how many teams we have. Like Cavan had senior and intermediate winners from division 1 and junior division 2 where are intermediate winners are division 3 and 5. I think division 1 should be senior div 2 and 3 intermediate and the rest junior
 

Mootz

New Member
I think part of the problem with Armagh teams competing in Ulster is that it is not the goal of the players to win it at the start of the season. For example Shanes probably set out at the start of the season to win the Armagh intermediate championship for the first time in years. Ulster is just a bonus for most teams the players don’t really care about it and have been celebrating for a week.

At senior level it is a bit different especially for the likes of Cross who seemed almost embarrassed to lift the cup after their win against Granemore. The drop in standard between 1A and 1B in Armagh is huge most 1B teams should be playing intermediate for us to have any chance of success in Ulster.
 

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
I think part of the problem with Armagh teams competing in Ulster is that it is not the goal of the players to win it at the start of the season. For example Shanes probably set out at the start of the season to win the Armagh intermediate championship for the first time in years. Ulster is just a bonus for most teams the players don’t really care about it and have been celebrating for a week.

At senior level it is a bit different especially for the likes of Cross who seemed almost embarrassed to lift the cup after their win against Granemore. The drop in standard between 1A and 1B in Armagh is huge most 1B teams should be playing intermediate for us to have any chance of success in Ulster.
I’d say theres very very few teams at intermediate or junior level in Ireland who at the start of the year will be thinking of winning provincials, the county title is the only aim naturally, then after that regroup and push for the provincial.

I don’t really see the point regrading teams to try and win provincial titles as it’s not as though playing at Ulster club level is something players will do many times in their career or enough for it to really develop them.
 

armaghlad

Active Member
We are miles behind, especially at intermediate and junior level.
Miles behind who? Since the inception of the Ulster IFC, Armagh clubs have made the IFC final 5 times.

Only Monaghan (8) and Tyrone (11) have a better record when it comes to final appearances.

There has never been an Armagh winner of the Ulster Intermediate Championship - the only county in the province to fail to provide at least one winner over the 20 odd years of the competition's existence. Worse than that, no Armagh club has even won a game at this level since Cullaville all the way back in 2011 - 12 seasons ago!
There’s never been a Tyrone winner of the AI club title at senior level but that doesn’t mean the football there is “miles behind”… Apart from Cruppen last year and Grange in 2019, Armagh’s reps have more or less all been beat by 1/2 points in the Ulster IFC competition in the last 8 years. Shane’s have carried on that disappointing trend this year. I still wouldn’t say Armagh clubs are “miles behind” at this level.

The county preforms little better at Junior level, with APM's success in 2012 the only achievement of note. Clubs from the county have managed a combined total of 3 wins in the 9 seasons since then, with 6 first round exits.
Would you say we are “miles behind” at Junior level? Clubs from Antrim, Down, Derry and Fermanagh have never won the Junior crown. Again this competition is dominated by Tyrone and Monaghan, seemingly won on a perennial basis by one of either county’s yo-yo clubs.

The county (read Cross) used to compete well at senior level, but even at this level we've slipped back significantly. Senior clubs have won just 6 games between them in Ulster over the last decade, with 3 of those coming in Cross' 2015 provincial success. There have been 5 first round exits in that time, with Clann Eireann (2021), Cross (2018) & Maghery (2016) all on the end of big semi-final beatings even after managing to edge through a first round game.
I agree to a certain extent our standard bearers haven’t stepped up to the plate at the senior grade. Consider though that Maghery & Clann Éireann in their first games at this level were up against serial winners - experience means everything at this level.

It's gone beyond failing to compete with counties like Tyrone & Monaghan with strong club scenes, Armagh clubs have barely competed with anyone in recent years. This across the board drop off is alarming, and would leave you wondering where the county side is headed in the medium to long term.
A Monaghan team last won an Ulster Club title at senior level 31 years ago. Tyrone last won one 20 years ago. Just food for thought when you think the grass is always greener on the other side.
 

Wide ball

Active Member
Miles behind who? Since the inception of the Ulster IFC, Armagh clubs have made the IFC final 5 times.

Only Monaghan (8) and Tyrone (11) have a better record when it comes to final appearances.


There’s never been a Tyrone winner of the AI club title at senior level but that doesn’t mean the football there is “miles behind”… Apart from Cruppen last year and Grange in 2019, Armagh’s reps have more or less all been beat by 1/2 points in the Ulster IFC competition in the last 8 years. Shane’s have carried on that disappointing trend this year. I still wouldn’t say Armagh clubs are “miles behind” at this level.


Would you say we are “miles behind” at Junior level? Clubs from Antrim, Down, Derry and Fermanagh have never won the Junior crown. Again this competition is dominated by Tyrone and Monaghan, seemingly won on a perennial basis by one of either county’s yo-yo clubs.


I agree to a certain extent our standard bearers haven’t stepped up to the plate at the senior grade. Consider though that Maghery & Clann Éireann in their first games at this level were up against serial winners - experience means everything at this level.


A Monaghan team last won an Ulster Club title at senior level 31 years ago. Tyrone last won one 20 years ago. Just food for thought when you think the grass is always greener on the other side.
Certainly see your point when you go over the history but if you look over 7 years especially it's been poor in all levels at club level and at county underage level too. I would just see the club game seeming weaker and the underage system weaker the last while. I do think there is merit in saying senior Ulster has kilcoo that have won 9 out of 10 down titles so can maybe have their focus on Ulster and slaghtneil and scotstown (although they never won) before that too and maybe when cross where doing so well is when they where easily winning Armagh and could look further and at the moment they couldn't with not winning Armagh for last few years. All in all I do think we need to have less teams in senior and push some clubs to intermediate and junior. It would probably give a truer refection on Armagh clubs. But it's still a worrying trend to lose early most years
 
Miles behind who? Since the inception of the Ulster IFC, Armagh clubs have made the IFC final 5 times.

Only Monaghan (8) and Tyrone (11) have a better record when it comes to final appearances.


There’s never been a Tyrone winner of the AI club title at senior level but that doesn’t mean the football there is “miles behind”… Apart from Cruppen last year and Grange in 2019, Armagh’s reps have more or less all been beat by 1/2 points in the Ulster IFC competition in the last 8 years. Shane’s have carried on that disappointing trend this year. I still wouldn’t say Armagh clubs are “miles behind” at this level.


Would you say we are “miles behind” at Junior level? Clubs from Antrim, Down, Derry and Fermanagh have never won the Junior crown. Again this competition is dominated by Tyrone and Monaghan, seemingly won on a perennial basis by one of either county’s yo-yo clubs.


I agree to a certain extent our standard bearers haven’t stepped up to the plate at the senior grade. Consider though that Maghery & Clann Éireann in their first games at this level were up against serial winners - experience means everything at this level.


A Monaghan team last won an Ulster Club title at senior level 31 years ago. Tyrone last won one 20 years ago. Just food for thought when you think the grass is always greener on the other side.
All very correct, but I don’t see the point.

My contention is simple - the standard of club football in the county has been slipping in recent years. We’re miles behind where we used to be.

The deteriorating achievements of county representatives in provincial competition over the last decade, and especially the last 6 or 7 years, is clear indication of these falling standards.

Tie this to the county’s awful record at intercounty minor and u20/21 level since the beginning of the 2010s, and a concerning picture emerges.

For how long can we expect the senior intercounty side to remain competitive when no other county representative is?
 

armaghlad

Active Member
All very correct, but I don’t see the point.
My point is it’s disingenuous to say the club scene is miles off in terms of standard when it’s not.

My contention is simple - the standard of club football in the county has been slipping in recent years. We’re miles behind where we used to be.
Not buying it. Where did we used to be that we are now “miles behind”? When was Armagh club football at its peak? Was it when Cross didn’t start training until October because they knew they’d swan through the Armagh SFC? Or was it before that?

The deteriorating achievements of county representatives in provincial competition over the last decade, and especially the last 6 or 7 years, is clear indication of these falling standards.
The standards may have fallen slightly but that doesn’t necessarily mean we’re miles off.

Tie this to the county’s awful record at intercounty minor and u20/21 level since the beginning of the 2010s, and a concerning picture emerges.
I’ve never put too much emphasis on underage football, especially now that it’s at u17/u20. Armagh never really competed at these grades in any case.

For how long can we expect the senior intercounty side to remain competitive when no other county representative is?
Who knows? I would argue the county team has steadily improved over the same 6-7 year period you say the standard of club football has declined.
 

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
My point is it’s disingenuous to say the club scene is miles off in terms of standard when it’s not.


Not buying it. Where did we used to be that we are now “miles behind”? When was Armagh club football at its peak? Was it when Cross didn’t start training until October because they knew they’d swan through the Armagh SFC? Or was it before that?


The standards may have fallen slightly but that doesn’t necessarily mean we’re miles off.


I’ve never put too much emphasis on underage football, especially now that it’s at u17/u20. Armagh never really competed at these grades in any case.


Who knows? I would argue the county team has steadily improved over the same 6-7 year period you say the standard of club football has declined.
It’s an interesting one, a lot of the Armagh senior team today had little or no success at county minor other than the older lads, but like you say the county team has been getting steadily better the last number of years.

Looking the strongest clubs in county, Cross generally do really well at minor as do Clann Eireann and Killeavy, but looking at Kilcoo, correct me if I’m wrong but they don’t generally have brilliant minor teams compared to say Burren, but always manage to get one or two lads through each year to push the players who are already there.

Are we better off with for talks 50 small clubs and maybe get one or two from each to play county level or are we better with 20 bigger clubs getting 3 or 4 players to play county?
 

Wide ball

Active Member
It’s an interesting one, a lot of the Armagh senior team today had little or no success at county minor other than the older lads, but like you say the county team has been getting steadily better the last number of years.

Looking the strongest clubs in county, Cross generally do really well at minor as do Clann Eireann and Killeavy, but looking at Kilcoo, correct me if I’m wrong but they don’t generally have brilliant minor teams compared to say Burren, but always manage to get one or two lads through each year to push the players who are already there.

Are we better off with for talks 50 small clubs and maybe get one or two from each to play county level or are we better with 20 bigger clubs getting 3 or 4 players to play county?
I do see your point what I would say is the 2009 winning minor team we only really got 3 consistent members of the team from that, where as the team on 15 or 16 although won nothing provided more players in the senior squad today, the 2 oneills Conor O'Neill, jarly og, crealy, Duffy, mcquillan all came from the one team that did nothing at minor and lost a under 21 final, my point would be the more successful your underage team the more likely you are to have better players, the club scene I do notice that a few of Armagh teams have lost minor club finals to Derry teams and cross won once, I just feel there are a few teams that should join others ie. Clonmore and maghery, an portmore and collegeland
 

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
I do see your point what I would say is the 2009 winning minor team we only really got 3 consistent members of the team from that, where as the team on 15 or 16 although won nothing provided more players in the senior squad today, the 2 oneills Conor O'Neill, jarly og, crealy, Duffy, mcquillan all came from the one team that did nothing at minor and lost a under 21 final, my point would be the more successful your underage team the more likely you are to have better players, the club scene I do notice that a few of Armagh teams have lost minor club finals to Derry teams and cross won once, I just feel there are a few teams that should join others ie. Clonmore and maghery, an portmore and collegeland
Is that what we want to be doing as a county though, for talks sake using your example say APM and Collegeland have 22 players each, maybe some of them aren’t the greatest but they still get game time with injuries/suspensions etc to the main 18-19 core players, lets say they join giving a panel of 44.

Realistically no one beyond number 30 is going to see much action, what do we do about those lads? Do we do what say Dublin does and have bigger clubs with 2nd and 3rds teams?

Thats putting aside the traditional rivalries between those clubs, theres probably plenty more examples throughout the county of teams operating at intermediate/junior level who arguably could join with neighbours- Belleek/Whitecross/Clady/Newtown/Mullaghbrack.
Other clubs as well that are right on top of each other although seem to be thriving numbers wise- Shanes/Cruppen,Sarsfields/Tones and the other Lurgan clubs as well.
 

Wide ball

Active Member
Is that what we want to be doing as a county though, for talks sake using your example say APM and Collegeland have 22 players each, maybe some of them aren’t the greatest but they still get game time with injuries/suspensions etc to the main 18-19 core players, lets say they join giving a panel of 44.

Realistically no one beyond number 30 is going to see much action, what do we do about those lads? Do we do what say Dublin does and have bigger clubs with 2nd and 3rds teams?

Thats putting aside the traditional rivalries between those clubs, theres probably plenty more examples throughout the county of teams operating at intermediate/junior level who arguably could join with neighbours- Belleek/Whitecross/Clady/Newtown/Mullaghbrack.
Other clubs as well that are right on top of each other although seem to be thriving numbers wise- Shanes/Cruppen,Sarsfields/Tones and the other Lurgan clubs as well.
Yeah I agree about the rivalry. But and I see now underage we have teams amalgamated because of small numbers so they grow up playing for one team then a different one as senior. I don't see the harm for some of the club's with low numbers and who are close to another club joining and we have a reserve league and championship where players can still get games. People tell me ponytspass had people from down playing a few years ago and John Rafferty playing about 8 or 9 years ago.
 
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