ULSTER FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP 2K22

Big Jim

Well-Known Member
Michael Murphy was shown up to day - looked like an old man against Rogers.

Derry on the handy side of the all ireland draw - unless a qualifier comes through, Derry could beat Galway to make the final ???
Kind of agree and disagree in equal measure about Murphy. Yeah he didn't have a great game yesterday, but at the same time possibly got the score of the game when he shot with his left and was off balance. His free taking was unusually poor by his standards.
That said I still love watching what he can do with a football though. The whinging and crying - not so much! It seems as he slows down he gets at the ref more and more. An exceptionally annoying trait and many others seem to be doing this as their careers head towards retirement
 
You do not think that Armagh with its motivated fit players and tactically asute management would be a threat to them?
Armagh would need to win two championship games in a row to meet Derry. We haven’t won two games back to back in championship football since beating Westmeath, Sligo and Clare in 2018.

But in short - no I do not, not one bit
 

h754136

Active Member
Derry probably have had a bit more success at underage than us in recent years but, still, they were in div 4 not that long ago and have shown that an Ulster championship is achievable.
I’ve beaten this drum for a long time now but Rory Gallagher & Derry have further proved my point. The ‘right’ manager can turn around the fortunes of a team that have previously been seen as poor or average.
I'm not sure this sort of thinking is accurate nor useful.

Derry haven't just had 'a bit' more success than us at underage level in recent years - they've had way, way more success.

Derry have appeared in 6 of the last 8 Ulster minor finals, winning 3 of them (and they really should have added a fourth title on Sunday). They also won a minor AI in 2020. By contrast, it's been 9 seasons since we last appeared in an Ulster minor final - 2014, when we were hammered by Donegal.

Derry have also appeared in 3 out of the last 6 Ulster U21/U20 finals, including beating us well in the 2018 final. That 2018 final is our only final appearance at this grade in the last 13 seasons!

Derry schools have been more successful than our schools over the last decade, with Maghera and Magherafelt sharing 6 of the last 10 MacRory Cups between them. And Derry club sides have typically been much more competitive than our clubs at Ulster level in recent years.

So Derry have been outperforming us at every level and every grade for the last decade, outside of the senior intercounty set-up - but it was only a matter of time before they caught up and passed us by at this level too.

Derry are not an example of an underperforming group just getting their shit together under the right manager. They are an example of a county beginning to reap the benefits of getting their player development structures into good shape.

It is inaccurate to think that they have just hotwired their way to success by employing the 'right' manager - and it is dangerous to think that we could replicate their accomplishments with our own 'right' manager, especially given that we have had none of the same recent player development success.
 
I'm not sure this sort of thinking is accurate nor useful.

Derry haven't just had 'a bit' more success than us at underage level in recent years - they've had way, way more success.

Derry have appeared in 6 of the last 8 Ulster minor finals, winning 3 of them (and they really should have added a fourth title on Sunday). They also won a minor AI in 2020. By contrast, it's been 9 seasons since we last appeared in an Ulster minor final - 2014, when we were hammered by Donegal.

Derry have also appeared in 3 out of the last 6 Ulster U21/U20 finals, including beating us well in the 2018 final. That 2018 final is our only final appearance at this grade in the last 13 seasons!

Derry schools have been more successful than our schools over the last decade, with Maghera and Magherafelt sharing 6 of the last 10 MacRory Cups between them. And Derry club sides have typically been much more competitive than our clubs at Ulster level in recent years.

So Derry have been outperforming us at every level and every grade for the last decade, outside of the senior intercounty set-up - but it was only a matter of time before they caught up and passed us by at this level too.

Derry are not an example of an underperforming group just getting their shit together under the right manager. They are an example of a county beginning to reap the benefits of getting their player development structures into good shape.

It is inaccurate to think that they have just hotwired their way to success by employing the 'right' manager - and it is dangerous to think that we could replicate their accomplishments with our own 'right' manager, especially given that we have had none of the same recent player development success.
Well said. Tyrone, Derry, Donegal, Monaghan and I’d fire Cavan into this list have been light years ahead of us at underage level.
 

pablo

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure this sort of thinking is accurate nor useful.

Derry haven't just had 'a bit' more success than us at underage level in recent years - they've had way, way more success.

Derry have appeared in 6 of the last 8 Ulster minor finals, winning 3 of them (and they really should have added a fourth title on Sunday). They also won a minor AI in 2020. By contrast, it's been 9 seasons since we last appeared in an Ulster minor final - 2014, when we were hammered by Donegal.

Derry have also appeared in 3 out of the last 6 Ulster U21/U20 finals, including beating us well in the 2018 final. That 2018 final is our only final appearance at this grade in the last 13 seasons!

Derry schools have been more successful than our schools over the last decade, with Maghera and Magherafelt sharing 6 of the last 10 MacRory Cups between them. And Derry club sides have typically been much more competitive than our clubs at Ulster level in recent years.

So Derry have been outperforming us at every level and every grade for the last decade, outside of the senior intercounty set-up - but it was only a matter of time before they caught up and passed us by at this level too.

Derry are not an example of an underperforming group just getting their shit together under the right manager. They are an example of a county beginning to reap the benefits of getting their player development structures into good shape.

It is inaccurate to think that they have just hotwired their way to success by employing the 'right' manager - and it is dangerous to think that we could replicate their accomplishments with our own 'right' manager, especially given that we have had none of the same recent player development success.
Spot on.
We have not invested in the platforms that will bring success in the same way that Derry and other counties have. Or if we have, we appear to be going about it wrong, if based on our track record over the past decade and more. At underage and schools we are weak and have been for a long time. Our club teams are no longer competing for provincial (never mind national) titles.
We do not have a platform that produces players with experience of winning and knowing how to win. That is not meant to be a slight at the honest effort of our team, but few of them are coming from a culture of winning.

For a supposedly 'new team' I could not help but admire how Derry never lost focus during that Ulster final. Staying with it all the way during extra time until they physically and mentally edged out Donegal in the final stretch. All this reflected a self-belief and a winners mentality gained from a background of success at underage, schools and a highly competitive club scene. How many games have we lost during those last critical few minutes when you need that type of background to get across the line?
 

ShiftYa

Active Member
Is the “talent gap” between us and Derry that big? Man for man I don’t think we’re that far off the mark, our problems can’t be simply boiled down to lack of underage success, it only takes 1 or 2 coming through from each age group every year to have a successful senior team. Management is a major factor and many of the Derry team have been round the block, so to speak and have only started preforming in the last 2 years.
 

Geezersleftfoot

Active Member
Is the “talent gap” between us and Derry that big? Man for man I don’t think we’re that far off the mark, our problems can’t be simply boiled down to lack of underage success, it only takes 1 or 2 coming through from each age group every year to have a successful senior team. Management is a major factor and many of the Derry team have been round the block, so to speak and have only started preforming in the last 2 years.
I agree with this. You can talk all you want about underage success but it takes the right management to bring it all together.
 

M18

Active Member
Blaine

Burns
Morgan
Forker

Burns
Rowland
McCabe

Crealey
Rian

Conor O’Neill
Oisin
Soupy

Turbitt
Rory
Nugent
 

pablo

Well-Known Member
I agree with this. You can talk all you want about underage success but it takes the right management to bring it all together.
That is exactly what happened in Derry. They have had a long ongoing disconnect between clubs and the Senior county team. Plenty of excellent coaching among the clubs resulting in underage/school success and a highly competitive club scene. But between infighting and general apathy, there was little buy-in to the Senior county team. The drop into Div 4 was bit of kick in the backside that things needed to change. Gallagher has been able to bring some togetherness, focus and tactical awareness. Yes-a good manager has changed things in Derry, but the platform for success was there and that will allow it to be sustainable as long as they do not revert back to beating lumps out of each other.
We don't have that platform and like h754136, I am wary of the idea that all will change for us with a different manager. It did for Derry, but I am not sure it would for us. We could have a bit of progress, but I can't see it being sustainable unless we address deeper issues in Armagh football.
There is an argument that McGeeney has actually achieved as much as he can with this group of footballers and in fact, as a team they may be overachieving. Its an idea-I'm not sure I agree with it but have seen it on this forum and it gives basis for thought. McGeeney has brought in a set up at senior level that the players totally buy into. I understand he has done a lot of work (including fund raising) to ensure structures are all in place for the players-and they seem happy and committed. I do agree that Kieran is not great on the line as a tactician, definite mistakes have been made-but still the fact that we have a competitive Div 1 team maybe reflects the work and structures that he has brought in, despite the fact that the state of football within the county is weak at the moment. Just be careful what we wish for when we call for a change of manager.
 

GAAJohn

Member
That is exactly what happened in Derry. They have had a long ongoing disconnect between clubs and the Senior county team. Plenty of excellent coaching among the clubs resulting in underage/school success and a highly competitive club scene. But between infighting and general apathy, there was little buy-in to the Senior county team. The drop into Div 4 was bit of kick in the backside that things needed to change. Gallagher has been able to bring some togetherness, focus and tactical awareness. Yes-a good manager has changed things in Derry, but the platform for success was there and that will allow it to be sustainable as long as they do not revert back to beating lumps out of each other.
We don't have that platform and like h754136, I am wary of the idea that all will change for us with a different manager. It did for Derry, but I am not sure it would for us. We could have a bit of progress, but I can't see it being sustainable unless we address deeper issues in Armagh football.
There is an argument that McGeeney has actually achieved as much as he can with this group of footballers and in fact, as a team they may be overachieving. Its an idea-I'm not sure I agree with it but have seen it on this forum and it gives basis for thought. McGeeney has brought in a set up at senior level that the players totally buy into. I understand he has done a lot of work (including fund raising) to ensure structures are all in place for the players-and they seem happy and committed. I do agree that Kieran is not great on the line as a tactician, definite mistakes have been made-but still the fact that we have a competitive Div 1 team maybe reflects the work and structures that he has brought in, despite the fact that the state of football within the county is weak at the moment. Just be careful what we wish for when we call for a change of manager.
Yes he is probably tactically poor at the highest level of intercounty but I would be in favour of him overseeing our underage teams. No doubt in my mind he would have our underage teams alongside Derry, Tyrone etc. He won a u21 title with Kildare and I have no doubt he would reinvigorate our underage teams.
 

Geezersleftfoot

Active Member
That is exactly what happened in Derry. They have had a long ongoing disconnect between clubs and the Senior county team. Plenty of excellent coaching among the clubs resulting in underage/school success and a highly competitive club scene. But between infighting and general apathy, there was little buy-in to the Senior county team. The drop into Div 4 was bit of kick in the backside that things needed to change. Gallagher has been able to bring some togetherness, focus and tactical awareness. Yes-a good manager has changed things in Derry, but the platform for success was there and that will allow it to be sustainable as long as they do not revert back to beating lumps out of each other.
We don't have that platform and like h754136, I am wary of the idea that all will change for us with a different manager. It did for Derry, but I am not sure it would for us. We could have a bit of progress, but I can't see it being sustainable unless we address deeper issues in Armagh football.
There is an argument that McGeeney has actually achieved as much as he can with this group of footballers and in fact, as a team they may be overachieving. Its an idea-I'm not sure I agree with it but have seen it on this forum and it gives basis for thought. McGeeney has brought in a set up at senior level that the players totally buy into. I understand he has done a lot of work (including fund raising) to ensure structures are all in place for the players-and they seem happy and committed. I do agree that Kieran is not great on the line as a tactician, definite mistakes have been made-but still the fact that we have a competitive Div 1 team maybe reflects the work and structures that he has brought in, despite the fact that the state of football within the county is weak at the moment. Just be careful what we wish for when we call for a change of manager.
I’m a huge fan of McGeeney and it’s something I’ve given considerable thought to. Like you say, sometimes it’s better the devil you know but there certainly has to be serious consideration given by the county board into a change in management and all that entails
 

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
I’m a huge fan of McGeeney and it’s something I’ve given considerable thought to. Like you say, sometimes it’s better the devil you know but there certainly has to be serious consideration given by the county board into a change in management and all that entails
Yeah I agree it needs thought- can see both sides i.e. McGeeney has us punching above our weight with the players we have, or would someone new provide us with the change to kick on to the next level. Would we be like Tyrone- where a change in management obviously had a huge positive effect where they pushed on to win Sam, or for want of a better example, we could end up like Arsenal in the soccer who a lot of people thought should change manager to push on to be winning league titles- they made the change and went from consistency in finishing 4th or above to slipping down the league regularly.

I honestly don’t know where I stand on the management question, but its one for after we are out!
 

pablo

Well-Known Member
Is the “talent gap” between us and Derry that big? Man for man I don’t think we’re that far off the mark, our problems can’t be simply boiled down to lack of underage success, it only takes 1 or 2 coming through from each age group every year to have a successful senior team. Management is a major factor and many of the Derry team have been round the block, so to speak and have only started preforming in the last 2 years.
Just to come back to this as I hope none of my comments come across as dismissive or disrespectful of our current squad/players. I will be there, cheering our lads on. I do agree, we have a talented squad and when all available, our choice of forwards in particular is very exciting. My point was really that underage success breeds success and experience for knowing how to grind out a win-and I think we lack that. Our players while talented do not come from a culture of winning. Having said that, I remember one of the most memorable evenings I have had at the AG was the U20 Ulster semi final (2018 was it?) against Tyrone. Jaysus what a night of football! We never took a backfoot and stuck it out over two periods of extra time to put the goblins in their place. Quite a few of our current panel are from that team and if we show that level of spirit...
 
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