Ulster Senior Football Championship 2020
- Thread starter orchard92
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ragingbull
Well-Known Member
is it time for Declan Bonner to go 
PatMustard
Well-Known Member
Quiet today, but he’s still a great player.
portadownarmaghfan
Well-Known Member
Would agree with this. Thought the ref was very harsh on Cavan.
PutTheHighBallInLow
Active Member
MC Geeney said it himself, we were timid....
If you think a team is superior to you ability wise, the only way to beat them is get in their face, and play the game on your terms.
As Cavan did...
Armagh_paul
Well-Known Member
McGeeney saying that was pointing out the obvious.
After having a bit of time away from the game we just don't have a team. We have really good individual players but not a team.
It's not just that, there are many many other problems and after 6 years we find ourselves having to go back to fixing the basics.
Rufus T Firefly
Well-Known Member
Didn’t see that result coming at all. In fact I was anticipating a Donegal victory up until the goal went in. I don’t mind telling you I fair leapt out of the chair when the ball hit the back of the net.
I said elsewhere that Donegal and Tyrone are streets ahead of anything else in Ulster and that statement now looks rather foolish this morning. For me what yesterday highlights is how much real qualities in individuals can be brought together in a team to make the combined effort greater than the sum of the parts and in doing so overcome what might looks like an insurmountable deficit - pride, courage, determination, never-say-die attitude, putting the team before self and absolute will to win.
The team who wanted it the most won it, and no one epitomised all of those qualities more than the magnificent Thomas Galligan who literally put the team and the challenge before personal safety. Inspiring stuff.
I'm sorry to say that that Cavan performance yesterday puts into perspective some of the other performances that have been thrown up by other teams throughout the Championship and I would have Armagh very high up on that list. Cavan’s performance yesterday shows how pathetic the Armagh effort was and I’d love to think there are a lot of our players taking a long hard look at themselves this morning.
I’m convinced Armagh would have gone toe-to-toe with that Cavan team, if they’d met, because they would have believed they could win - just as we did last year across two titanic struggles, when arguable they had a better team with McVeety on board. However, when it comes to playing against a superior team Armagh simply melted whereas Cavan grew. They were sensational.
The interviews at the end showed too what it meant. Life has been tough for all of us in 2020 and for some of us a lot more than others. Cavan has suffered those impacts. Sport is just that - sport or a pastime - which bears little significance when compared to the real trials of life - but its ability to lift the spirit of both individuals and people should never be underestimated.
Cavan deserved that yesterday and I couldn’t have been happier.
I said elsewhere that Donegal and Tyrone are streets ahead of anything else in Ulster and that statement now looks rather foolish this morning. For me what yesterday highlights is how much real qualities in individuals can be brought together in a team to make the combined effort greater than the sum of the parts and in doing so overcome what might looks like an insurmountable deficit - pride, courage, determination, never-say-die attitude, putting the team before self and absolute will to win.
The team who wanted it the most won it, and no one epitomised all of those qualities more than the magnificent Thomas Galligan who literally put the team and the challenge before personal safety. Inspiring stuff.
I'm sorry to say that that Cavan performance yesterday puts into perspective some of the other performances that have been thrown up by other teams throughout the Championship and I would have Armagh very high up on that list. Cavan’s performance yesterday shows how pathetic the Armagh effort was and I’d love to think there are a lot of our players taking a long hard look at themselves this morning.
I’m convinced Armagh would have gone toe-to-toe with that Cavan team, if they’d met, because they would have believed they could win - just as we did last year across two titanic struggles, when arguable they had a better team with McVeety on board. However, when it comes to playing against a superior team Armagh simply melted whereas Cavan grew. They were sensational.
The interviews at the end showed too what it meant. Life has been tough for all of us in 2020 and for some of us a lot more than others. Cavan has suffered those impacts. Sport is just that - sport or a pastime - which bears little significance when compared to the real trials of life - but its ability to lift the spirit of both individuals and people should never be underestimated.
Cavan deserved that yesterday and I couldn’t have been happier.
KilleavyGael
Active Member
Delighted for Cavan and I think Rufus sums up all there is to say on that point very well.
This morning I now have some serious questions about how Armagh are prepared for games, physically, tactically and mentally. If the county board aren't sitting thinking the same then we might as well forget about next year and just rejoin division 2 in 2022. If we all roughly agree that talent on the pitch isn't our issue then there is a serious heap of evidence building that the talent off the pitch (and I do not mean just Geezer) isn't up to scratch.
This morning I now have some serious questions about how Armagh are prepared for games, physically, tactically and mentally. If the county board aren't sitting thinking the same then we might as well forget about next year and just rejoin division 2 in 2022. If we all roughly agree that talent on the pitch isn't our issue then there is a serious heap of evidence building that the talent off the pitch (and I do not mean just Geezer) isn't up to scratch.
Lemallon
Active Member
Really believe that yesterday highlights some of the absolute excuse laden Rubbish that has been used to defend a lot of championship performances Over the past 3/4 years perhaps even more.
I actually don’t believe that Cavan league performance can be totally dismissed.
I believe they had 10 starters v Armagh that played yesterday and we utterly destroyed them. The Simple fact of the matter is below Dublin there is very little difference on the day between the talent levels of about 12/13 teams
Anyone can beat anyone if Tactics, attitude, preparation and performance is at the optimum level.
For whatever reason when the pressure is ratcheted up our team both at the management and playing level has not proved capable of that
After the semi final there was a lot of guff spoken about us not being at Donegal’s level and we couldn’t have expected to beat them.
Yesterday proves how utterly wrong that was.
There is zero chance that the team Cavan had on the field yesterday is more talented than ours and yet they were 15 points better than us.
Why is that ? Why are we incapable of producing our best when it’s needed?
I strongly believe our current structure has taken us as far as we can. How much more evidence Is needed. There have been multiple horror performances in the championship now that no other management in the country would have gotten a free pass on.
Plus it is one of the biggest myths in Ireland that this is a young team.
The vast majority of our starters v Donegal are far closer to the end than the start of their careers.
Another point. How many Armagh players have had their best season recently in their first season in the jersey. I’d use Niall Grimley Rian and Jarly og as examples of that predominantly.
Niall’s driving from midfield to score has disappeared. Rian never scored from play in the champ this year and Jarly og has looked totally lost all year.
is good coaching not supposed to improve players ?
The whole panel needs a refresh and new ideas. However the Manager is unlikely to refresh the back room team as everyone knows he has his cohorts that he doesn’t go outside.
We are stuck at a level now that we will never surpass and a lot of players careers have been wasted.
Give me Jimmy Mc Guiness in the morning.
We’d win an ulster title with him !
I actually don’t believe that Cavan league performance can be totally dismissed.
I believe they had 10 starters v Armagh that played yesterday and we utterly destroyed them. The Simple fact of the matter is below Dublin there is very little difference on the day between the talent levels of about 12/13 teams
Anyone can beat anyone if Tactics, attitude, preparation and performance is at the optimum level.
For whatever reason when the pressure is ratcheted up our team both at the management and playing level has not proved capable of that
After the semi final there was a lot of guff spoken about us not being at Donegal’s level and we couldn’t have expected to beat them.
Yesterday proves how utterly wrong that was.
There is zero chance that the team Cavan had on the field yesterday is more talented than ours and yet they were 15 points better than us.
Why is that ? Why are we incapable of producing our best when it’s needed?
I strongly believe our current structure has taken us as far as we can. How much more evidence Is needed. There have been multiple horror performances in the championship now that no other management in the country would have gotten a free pass on.
Plus it is one of the biggest myths in Ireland that this is a young team.
The vast majority of our starters v Donegal are far closer to the end than the start of their careers.
Another point. How many Armagh players have had their best season recently in their first season in the jersey. I’d use Niall Grimley Rian and Jarly og as examples of that predominantly.
Niall’s driving from midfield to score has disappeared. Rian never scored from play in the champ this year and Jarly og has looked totally lost all year.
is good coaching not supposed to improve players ?
The whole panel needs a refresh and new ideas. However the Manager is unlikely to refresh the back room team as everyone knows he has his cohorts that he doesn’t go outside.
We are stuck at a level now that we will never surpass and a lot of players careers have been wasted.
Give me Jimmy Mc Guiness in the morning.
We’d win an ulster title with him !
PatMustard
Well-Known Member
As much as I enjoy the NFL, it’s clearly not an accurate indicator of where teams are at.
Yes we get great games, but most teams in Div 1 especially aren’t bothered about winning it. Once they consolidate their Div 1 spot, they give up, and prepare for championship.
So, any ideas of an All Ireland championship based on a league system is absolute nonsense.
We had a great knockout Ulster (and Armagh club) championship this year, and it showed everyone what we’ve missed for 20 years. This is clearly the only way to go. None of this Super 8, qualifiers, Tier A and B or Champions League pish. FECKIN’ KNOCKOUT!!
Yes we get great games, but most teams in Div 1 especially aren’t bothered about winning it. Once they consolidate their Div 1 spot, they give up, and prepare for championship.
So, any ideas of an All Ireland championship based on a league system is absolute nonsense.
We had a great knockout Ulster (and Armagh club) championship this year, and it showed everyone what we’ve missed for 20 years. This is clearly the only way to go. None of this Super 8, qualifiers, Tier A and B or Champions League pish. FECKIN’ KNOCKOUT!!
Armagh_paul
Well-Known Member
As much as I enjoy the NFL, it’s clearly not an accurate indicator of where teams are at.
Yes we get great games, but most teams in Div 1 especially aren’t bothered about winning it. Once they consolidate their Div 1 spot, they give up, and prepare for championship.
So, any ideas of an All Ireland championship based on a league system is absolute nonsense.
We had a great knockout Ulster (and Armagh club) championship this year, and it showed everyone what we’ve missed for 20 years. This is clearly the only way to go. None of this Super 8, qualifiers, Tier A and B or Champions League pish. FECKIN’ KNOCKOUT!!
The NFL structure has been dead for a while. They tried to revitalise and who knows, perhaps it would have worked had is not been for the pandemic but at the same time it is ridiculous that the NFL dictates who plays in the top All Ireland competition.
A regional league format should have been introduced and potentially rotate teams across leagues if possible every 3 years to keep things fresh. The top provincial teams in the league or across leagues contest the provincial finals with the next best places teams across the leagues playing for a place in the last eight. Just a rough idea, can't really expand on it at the moment.
Big Jim
Well-Known Member
Taking on board points from the previous 7 or 8 posts, I can't disagree with the conclusion about where we are and how under performing and over rated we are about our lads. No one is denying the obvious talent, but after the performance of a team in an Ulster Final that in theory shouldn't have made it past the preliminary round, our lads, to use the same phrase, need a look in the mirror. They need to decide if it was they who underperformed or if it was in them, or if they were subdued in a system that will work "when it clicks" but is so complicated, they're not sure what "it" is! If it were the latter, then they as a team must decide if they need a fresh approach. No team is above their manager, but they must look up to that manager and collectively agree that he or she is correct and leading them correctly across each junction.
A superb determined win from a superbly determined team. We almost to a man/woman wrote them off after the game against Monaghan as a one hit wonder. I now wonder how they kept hitting!
On the subject of Dublin (as mentioned by a few also), Sean Kelly during his reign was determined that the Dubs should be backed to get them to the highest level, competing and drawing the big numbers that the GAA craved in their quest for more and more golden income. Now they've created a monster that will be hard to stop. They might have in affect overdone it and will one day realise that interference in advantaging one over another, could ultimately destroy the championship as we/they know/knew it. Without a level playing field, it'll remain uphill for 31 4ever!! Some will break through in their province from time to time, but if the BIG prize goes to the metropolitan every year, why would anybody bother even trying in a competition with an inevitable outcome? Then the issue is bigger than if a manger is right for a position or if the best players are included in the correct positions.
A superb determined win from a superbly determined team. We almost to a man/woman wrote them off after the game against Monaghan as a one hit wonder. I now wonder how they kept hitting!
On the subject of Dublin (as mentioned by a few also), Sean Kelly during his reign was determined that the Dubs should be backed to get them to the highest level, competing and drawing the big numbers that the GAA craved in their quest for more and more golden income. Now they've created a monster that will be hard to stop. They might have in affect overdone it and will one day realise that interference in advantaging one over another, could ultimately destroy the championship as we/they know/knew it. Without a level playing field, it'll remain uphill for 31 4ever!! Some will break through in their province from time to time, but if the BIG prize goes to the metropolitan every year, why would anybody bother even trying in a competition with an inevitable outcome? Then the issue is bigger than if a manger is right for a position or if the best players are included in the correct positions.
Armagh_paul
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately yes - but they are the two biggest provinces and unavoidable.
Arbitrarily I would have three seasons with a North and South divide for three years and for the three years after and East and West divide and have them rotate across the seasons. Split the divisions up into two separate leagues. I will try and highlight the idea more precisely later.
Advantages
- Every team gets an even amount of games
- A single bad day doesn't knock you out of the Provincial or All Ireland championship
- An integrated structure that allows for league and provinces to continue
- More competitive games and to have a more condensed season, freeing up players for club
- If games are within a commutable distance people may be more willing to attend games
- Weaker counties that only get to play 2 championship games a season have more games. I am not a big fan of counties having only two championship games and then they don't play for another 7 odd months.
- The rotation system wont allow for counties like Armagh and Cork to meet until the All Ireland.
- More games = more money to be spent on travel etc
- Lose the knock-out fun
- Give more of an opportunity for the current dominant teams to remain dominant - but there is a counterpoint, the likes of Armagh need to build their confidence and more games will help hopefully.
PatMustard
Well-Known Member
@Big Jim - re: Sean Kelly, Dublin already we’re at the top level. Leinster was competive after Dublin won in 1995. Kildare, Meath, Offaly winning titles, but Dublin were on a par with them. 4 or 5 teams were competing. Same as the other provinces bar Munster.
Even the mid 2000’s had Laois, Westmeath winning but Dublin were regularly getting to AI QF and semis. They weren’t far away, just the same as Armagh, Mayo, Tyrone, Cork, Galway, Donegal, Laois, Derry, Fermanagh, Sligo, Down, Limerick, Wexford weren’t far away in that decade.
The knockout championship has brought us great games and unexpected results, bar Leinster. It’s a foregone conclusion, and although I’d prefer a knockout championship, 11 counties wouldn’t even bother committing every year because, we’ll, what’s the point even bothering to compete with Dublin?
Even the mid 2000’s had Laois, Westmeath winning but Dublin were regularly getting to AI QF and semis. They weren’t far away, just the same as Armagh, Mayo, Tyrone, Cork, Galway, Donegal, Laois, Derry, Fermanagh, Sligo, Down, Limerick, Wexford weren’t far away in that decade.
The knockout championship has brought us great games and unexpected results, bar Leinster. It’s a foregone conclusion, and although I’d prefer a knockout championship, 11 counties wouldn’t even bother committing every year because, we’ll, what’s the point even bothering to compete with Dublin?
Armagh_paul
Well-Known Member
This is just something I have put together quickly to give an idea of the format.
Northern Division A
1) Armagh
2) Mayo
3) Donegal
4) Down
5) Longford
6) Monaghan
7) Fermanagh
8) An eighth team to even out the structure
Northern Division B
1) Roscommon
2) Cavan
3) Tyrone
4) Louth
5) Derry
6) Leitrim
7) Sligo
8) Antrim
Southern Division A
1) Galway
2) Cork
3) Wexford
4) Tipperary
5) Laois
6) Kildare
7) Meath
8) Offaly
Southern Division B
1) Dublin
2) Kerry
3) Limerick
4) Clare
5) Wicklow
6) Waterford
7) Carlow
8) Westmeath
(Every three years it rotates to West and East divisions)
Best placed Ulster finalists Armagh (1 in Northern Division A) and Cavan (2 in Northern Division B)
Best placed Connacht finalists (1) Roscommon (1) Galway
Best placed Muster finalists (2) Cork (2) Kerry
Best placed Leinster finalists (1) Dublin (3) Wexford
Provincial winners play against each other for the All Ireland and gets rid of the argument that provincial winners don't get a second chance. No lopsided provincial championships either.
That is a minimum of 7 games in a championship season for every county but if there is a desire to have home and away games then obviously a 14 game season is possible. The distance between some games may make it difficult but allow teams to decide to meet at neutral venue for both home and away fixtures.
McKenna Cup and it's counterpart competitions could become the secondary competition.
There are undoubtedly a lot of flaws in the idea.
Northern Division A
1) Armagh
2) Mayo
3) Donegal
4) Down
5) Longford
6) Monaghan
7) Fermanagh
8) An eighth team to even out the structure
Northern Division B
1) Roscommon
2) Cavan
3) Tyrone
4) Louth
5) Derry
6) Leitrim
7) Sligo
8) Antrim
Southern Division A
1) Galway
2) Cork
3) Wexford
4) Tipperary
5) Laois
6) Kildare
7) Meath
8) Offaly
Southern Division B
1) Dublin
2) Kerry
3) Limerick
4) Clare
5) Wicklow
6) Waterford
7) Carlow
8) Westmeath
(Every three years it rotates to West and East divisions)
Best placed Ulster finalists Armagh (1 in Northern Division A) and Cavan (2 in Northern Division B)
Best placed Connacht finalists (1) Roscommon (1) Galway
Best placed Muster finalists (2) Cork (2) Kerry
Best placed Leinster finalists (1) Dublin (3) Wexford
Provincial winners play against each other for the All Ireland and gets rid of the argument that provincial winners don't get a second chance. No lopsided provincial championships either.
That is a minimum of 7 games in a championship season for every county but if there is a desire to have home and away games then obviously a 14 game season is possible. The distance between some games may make it difficult but allow teams to decide to meet at neutral venue for both home and away fixtures.
McKenna Cup and it's counterpart competitions could become the secondary competition.
There are undoubtedly a lot of flaws in the idea.
ragingbull
Well-Known Member
WTF Mickey Harte new Louth manager
Mental altogether
I know he is not a favourite of ours but a coup for Louth, a genuine footballing county who could do with a man of his experience.