JoeH
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately it's behind a pay wall
Ulster Senior Football Championship 2020
- Thread starter orchard92
- Start date
Mcgeeney said "the buck stops with me".
True - it does - and the performance was woeful.
Does anyone think that he might be about to step down?
green flag
Active Member
I hear Tony McEntee has applied for the Louth managers job.
Armagh_paul
Well-Known Member
Ulster Senior Football Championship semi-final: Donegal 1-22 Armagh 0-13
A dank, rainy November afternoon in Cavan town. Donegal playing like 2020 All-Ireland champions - and Armagh ready to hibernate for the winter months in the house of pain.
In the fading autumnal light, Declan Bonner climbed the steps of the main stand in Kingspan Breffni Park to meet masked-up press reporters and proceeded to tip a big bag of familiar clichés on the table for our perusal.
We sifted through them but each one was discarded as quickly as they fell.
As bad as Armagh were in Saturday's semi-final, Donegal were absolutely awesome. They have players for all seasons.
Huge. Hearty. Skilful. Powerful. Ruthless.
Forget the Ulster title - three-in-a-row will be negotiated handily enough next weekend. On this form, they'll win the All-Ireland.
In fairness to Bonner, what does a man say after such a fantastic display that had a bit of everything, and especially with an Ulster final just a week away?
So, the well-worn clichés tumbled down the steps as we waited for 'Geezer'.
His was a proper, engaging, no-holds-barred assessment of what unfolded an hour earlier.
Armagh saved their worst performance of 2020 for Saturday's Ulster semi-final.
After a bright start against a stiff breeze, they collapsed in the second quarter. And that was kind of that.
“For the first time this year, I thought we were very, very timid, very meek, didn’t have a go at them. Standing still, soloing the ball. Really disappointing stuff," said McGeeney.
"It was very hard to watch it. It’s not what we trained to do. You don’t mind if we didn’t have the capabilities to go at teams, like in the past, but we do at the minute. That’s probably the most disappointing part.
“We didn’t have a cut at them in the first half. We’d loads of scoring chances, one-on-ones and we didn’t go at them. We'd chances to go at them, we had the players to go at them but we just didn’t do it.”
At half-time, Donegal were a speck in the distance - 1-12 to 0-3 in front. The second half was 0-10 apiece, but an entirely irrelevant affair.
The Armagh manager added: “When you’re playing against quality, you turn off for a second... Consistency is the biggest thing. Consistency involves doing the simple things very well.
"If you are a good team you need to have a go. If you’re not willing to be like [Peadar] Mogan and break that line and take two or three players on you’re always going to have extra defenders in front of you... But scoring two or three points in the first half is criminal."
Despite his acute disappointment, McGeeney accepted the "buck stops with me".
"That’s my job. We’ve one All-Ireland in the bag in 140 years but I do feel we have the players to compete at that level, I genuinely do.
"I know pundits tell you it’s about the cream of the crop. It’s not – you have to commit to something. We’re getting there; we are getting there.
"When you look beneath the surface of any team you’ll see cracks and we have to start plastering those over and get up there.
"As I said to them during the week, it’s time to put the big-boy pants on and step up. Our main players are 28, 29 and I hope they all stick at it because we’re going to need everybody for Division One."
Armagh, summed up by their manager in a nutshell.
As a footnote, after seven-and-a-half minutes of interrogation, we released Declan Bonner from the main stand.
What can the man say? Donegal were brilliant.
Injuries to Stephen McMenamin and to a lesser degree Paul Brennan and Hugh McFadden are Donegal's only concerns.
On a dank, rainy November day in Cavan town, we just might have caught a glimpse of the 2020 All-Ireland champions.
Armagh_paul
Well-Known Member
I know McEntee has not yet been a county manager but I think we are going to need a manager that is relatively unknown on the county scene but someone who performs well in the county. While the two Brian's did great work with Armagh they couldn't take us any further. Joe came in an instantly made an impact and got us across the finish line. Mickey Harte was manager for a year and then won an All Ireland. Jim McGuinness did it with Donegal in his second year.
I don't know what McGeeney's management style is but what I do know is that adapting to one style is detrimental to the development of this team. Unfortunately, county teams need to experience what it is like to play under different management styles, styles of play as different managers teach different things. There are managers out there that can see what our problems are and will work on them straight away, instantly adding value to the team. We need to shake things up badly, yes sometimes such shake ups can worsen the team but this is where the person tasked with the job covers all bases and makes sure this doesn't happen.
Managers at county level have a very short window of opportunity to make an impact in my opinion. With the exception of Mickey Harte (Love him or hate him) his record speaks for itself. Even the All Ireland champions keep things fresh with different managers. It is probably why Jim McGuinness has not returned to county management because the game has changed and everyone knows what his style is.
People praise Armagh for our style of play but we don't even have that anymore.
ragingbull
Well-Known Member
John McEntee has won club championships with Clontibret,Culloville,Crossmaglen & Ulster title with Crossmaglen plus took Culloville to intermediate ulster final
Armagh_paul
Well-Known Member
I purposefully didn't commit to ruling him out as a manager but to be mindful that he is a well known manager with a proven record. However with that being said it does feel like McGeeney will be manager next year.
A more pertinent question that should have been asked before, what has Geezer ever done as a manager? Prior to the Kildare job he had never managed a team. Kildare improves but won nothing. As a no 2 to Grimley we won nothing and now as a no 1, no trophies. There is a huge difference in playing on a winning team and managing a winning team.
Back to question often asked - if he was not a former great player, would he have lasted this long as manager (or even have been appointed in the first place)?
We are supporters of Armagh (Not of one person).
Let's get real - no other county (or supporters) would have put up with Geezers performance as a manager for so long.
Time for change.
Give the next man a 2 year contract - we all know that we will struggle in division one but we will need to see what changes and improvements he will make ' review after 2 years.
Let's get real - no other county (or supporters) would have put up with Geezers performance as a manager for so long.
Time for change.
Give the next man a 2 year contract - we all know that we will struggle in division one but we will need to see what changes and improvements he will make ' review after 2 years.
Armagh_paul
Well-Known Member
A lot of us believed he was the leader in 2002 and thought he could bring that success and professionalism as a manager but other counties copped on to the professionalism and that has left us lagging behind big time (yes it all comes down to finances). I always felt when Whenever we O'Rourke and McDonnell we were putting makeshift squads together that in reality never had a future. To his credit McGeeney wanted to create a team that would be successful (and have a sustained period of success) in the future which meant we would have little success in the short term.
Six years later it down to the poster to decide if we are still in the short term or long term of his plan. For me, I feel we are well in to the long term, some of the players on the panel were in their early 20's when he joined and are now in their late 20's and we have achieved nothing. After last weekend it's put to bed any doubts people may have had and it is now in fact a reality that we haven't improved. As I have said before, the game has changed since we won in 2002, it has changed since 2016 and with every year that passes other teams are going to get better and we are going to stay as a middling team that is always capable of an upset.
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No. But then again when do we ever appoint someone who wasn't a great former player. I have made my peace with the fact that we won't ever do this. Mc Geeney will step down and Mc Keever will more than likely come on board.
PatMustard
Well-Known Member
If McGeeney was going to go, he’d have done so by now.
It’s near the end of November. If the NFL starts beginning of February, that’s 2 months preparation. Is a new manager going to achieve any more next season that McGeeney would?
So it looks like he’s staying on for 2021. So let’s stop the “McGeeney out” talk. He’s got the team promoted to Division 1 and he deserves a chance to manage there.
It’s near the end of November. If the NFL starts beginning of February, that’s 2 months preparation. Is a new manager going to achieve any more next season that McGeeney would?
So it looks like he’s staying on for 2021. So let’s stop the “McGeeney out” talk. He’s got the team promoted to Division 1 and he deserves a chance to manage there.
ragingbull
Well-Known Member
O'Rourke was a former Armagh great wasn't he
Armagh_paul
Well-Known Member
I have come to the same conclusion that he will still be there for the NFL.
However, I don't agree with the sentiment that he should be managing the team because he achieved promotion, its a third rate competition. The team of the 00's used it as a warm up competition I don't get why people seem to think it is significant now? In no way whatsoever does it make up for the fact we have failed to make any sort of impact on the Ulster Championship where we have been hammered by Donegal twice and beaten by Down, Cavan and Fermanagh.
It comes down to the simple fact that we only produce results when it doesn't really matter. It has nothing to do with being negative towards McGeeney or the management, its the reality of the situation we are faced with.
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Big Jim
Well-Known Member
You're most likely correct - I certainly hope you are because this is my thought as well, but take that to it's natural conclusion. What if Joe Rushe from Waringstown wanted the job? Would he get it?
PatMustard
Well-Known Member
The NFL is still an important competition and it’s where we need to be. He deserves some credit for getting to Division 1.
Those Ulster defeats, how many did you expect to win? Maybe Down and Fermanagh, but they are two tricky places to go. We’ve beaten Down and Derry away in recent years. Plus, we went on good runs in the qualifiers in a few of those years. Do they count for nothing?
We only produce results when it doesn’t really matter? Ah come on now. So any win McGeeney gets (NFL, championship, qualifiers, McKenna), its not really an important one?
It looks like McGeeney can do no right where you’re concerned.
McGeeney will stay on if he wants to, but I don't really see what is in it for him at this stage. He probably just enjoys the environment of top level sport - it's been his life for decades now.
I think it's clear the side he has put together doesn't have what it takes to break through to the top level. The result at the weekend is final confirmation of that, for me anyway. To start building again probably means looking at establishing a core around the likes of the O'Neills and hoping more of that ilk filter through. But that's another 5, 6, 7 year project.
I feel a lot of sympathy for the man. He has made mistakes of course, but the key reason he hasn't brought the success we wanted is that the required talent has not emerged. He inherited a decent core built around the 2009 minors, with a handful of lads a year or two either side of that group (Clarke & Forker). But barely any top quality talent has emerged from subsequent age groups (Grimley, maybe). There is a massive hole in the age profile of the panel from the likes of Forker, Grugan, etc at 28/29 down to the next notable group of genuine top quality talent with the O'Neills, Turbitt, Burns at 21-23. If we had more coming through in that 5 or 6 year period we would be in much better shape now to compete with the big boys.
In hindsight, it was clear that this would be an issue. Our underage teams from 2011 onwards have been weak. These are the teams from which we would have hoped to source talent to supplement the senior team throughout McGeeney's reign. Tyrone, Donegal and Monaghan have been the most competitive underage sides in Ulster over the last decade, and, unsurprisingly, they have been the top dogs at senior level throughout that time. It's sometimes that easy to connect the dots.
All of which brings us back to the most important discussion happening on this board right now, and one that I hope is taking place between people of real influence within our county - the issue of development squads, coaching standards, and the management of emerging talent. We will go nowhere under any manager until things improve significantly in this area.
I think it's clear the side he has put together doesn't have what it takes to break through to the top level. The result at the weekend is final confirmation of that, for me anyway. To start building again probably means looking at establishing a core around the likes of the O'Neills and hoping more of that ilk filter through. But that's another 5, 6, 7 year project.
I feel a lot of sympathy for the man. He has made mistakes of course, but the key reason he hasn't brought the success we wanted is that the required talent has not emerged. He inherited a decent core built around the 2009 minors, with a handful of lads a year or two either side of that group (Clarke & Forker). But barely any top quality talent has emerged from subsequent age groups (Grimley, maybe). There is a massive hole in the age profile of the panel from the likes of Forker, Grugan, etc at 28/29 down to the next notable group of genuine top quality talent with the O'Neills, Turbitt, Burns at 21-23. If we had more coming through in that 5 or 6 year period we would be in much better shape now to compete with the big boys.
In hindsight, it was clear that this would be an issue. Our underage teams from 2011 onwards have been weak. These are the teams from which we would have hoped to source talent to supplement the senior team throughout McGeeney's reign. Tyrone, Donegal and Monaghan have been the most competitive underage sides in Ulster over the last decade, and, unsurprisingly, they have been the top dogs at senior level throughout that time. It's sometimes that easy to connect the dots.
All of which brings us back to the most important discussion happening on this board right now, and one that I hope is taking place between people of real influence within our county - the issue of development squads, coaching standards, and the management of emerging talent. We will go nowhere under any manager until things improve significantly in this area.
I agree with much if that. I would say though that Cavan have won plenty of Ulster under 21 titles in the last 10 years but are not miles ahead of us. I think Monaghan have only won one and I have to be convinced how far ahead of us they are.
I will add that Tyrone won the All Ireland under 21 title in 2015. At the equivalent age at minor Armagh beat them. At under 21 Tyrone beat Armagh in Breffni when the starting Armagh team was strange - I seem to remember those on senior squad didnt start. Without checking back that squad included players like Grimley, Rafferty, Jack Grugan , O'Hanlon, maybe Comiskey. Circumstances have conspired that all these have not been available.
I would be of the opinion though that in a county the size of Armagh you will only have a top underage team occasionally. The key is to bring the average player standard up and get a couple of better players to progress each year.