Ulster Senior Football Championship 2021

[pablo]

Anyone who doesn’t see that Armagh could match Tyrone is missing it. We have the players who could do what they did. If you put Logan and Dooher over that Armagh team then we would be much closer to the top table than we are. A big thing though that Tyrone have is that they can create and thrive off the siege mentality. Everyone hates us but we don’t care. It’s in their DNA. Couple that with good footballers and you have a winning formula. We have too many ‘nice’ players. We need a few John Donaldson’s. The skill is there, the mentality isn’t.

Agree. Although problem goes deeper than management. Before the hurling final, I was listening to a radio discussion about the Limerick hurling team and the current healthy state of the game within that county. They have come a long way since 2010, a time when they were in a real bad state. As a county, they took stock of things, developed a vision and came up with long term plan with set targets. During the discussion, it was asked if there would be any concerns in Limerick about what would happen when the current managerial team would eventual step down. I was really taken by the answer; not really-the most important thing to emerge from implementing their vision for Limerick hurling, was to engrain a culture of excellence. A mental thing. Once that was established and became integral to the Limerick psyche, they were there and would always be hard to beat. The winners mentality.
We have excellent players, but collectively we do not have a team of winners raised in any culture of winning or expectation to win. If we have a culture, it is one of accepting mediocrity and defining progress based on a mixed and underwhelming set of results. That is across all levels. Our underage profile has been abysmal for some time, players come through to senior who do not know what it is to win or experience an environment where success is expected. The honest answer to any debate as to whether we as a county are making progress has to be no. We should not be this way. We do have the resources to be better but do we have the will and the vision?

 

[Savo01]

I agree we are not as far off Tyrone as we look and when management couldn't sort out our defense in 6 years it is time to go. I don't follow the club scene as well as I should but how can there not be a good full and half back in the county? How many 6 point leads have we blown under McGeeney and it has never changed. 3 goals shipped against Tipp in the League game in 17, 3 shipped against Westmeath in 19 just before the lockdown and 4 shipped against Monaghan in Newry this summer. He has learned nothing! The O'Neill's are top drawer players and probably better than anything Tyrone have individually. I have said it here elsewhere, us winning Sam in 02 was Tyrone's catalyst to get rid of Art and Eugene and bring Harte in, the rest is history as they say. Since losing to them in the 05 semi final, we've not been back to one since and won 2 Ulster's. Compare that to them making 4 Final's, 3 semi's and won 6 Ulster's. I don't know about you but it hurts like hell to see us being essentially humiliated like that!

 

[Savo01]

Our underage profile has been abysmal for some time, players come through to senior who do not know what it is to win or experience an environment where success is expected.

Totally agree with your points especially this one. Not made a Minor Final since 14 or won one since 09. Can't remember the last time we won the U-21/20 Ulster title? Simply disgraceful.

 

[PatMustard]

Tyrone didn’t have a tradition of success, same as ourselves. Until Crossmaglen came along (which I think did instill some confidence into the county setup), Armagh teams didn’t have much success.

I can’t help thinking that the schools setup in Tyrone is a huge help. Boys grow up successful, knowing how to win, expect to win (again, like Crossmaglen). Dungannon Academy have won McRory/Hogan cups, Omagh do well, and Holy Trinity/St Ciarans Ballygawley have in the other grade (name escapes me). I even recall Joseph’s in Coalisland achieving in their competition. I’m sure there’s another high school in Dungannon too.

You also have high schools in Carrickmore, Strabane, Donaghmore. Do we have as many? Ronan’s in Lurgan, Patrick’s in Armagh, Keady and Cross. Are there any more? Portadown school team is non-existent as far as I’m aware.

All that success at school level matches up with success at Minor county level, then u20, and ultimately senior.

 

[Armaghball]

Tyrone didn’t have a tradition of success, same as ourselves. Until Crossmaglen came along (which I think did instill some confidence into the county setup), Armagh teams didn’t have much success.

I can’t help thinking that the schools setup in Tyrone is a huge help. Boys grow up successful, knowing how to win, expect to win (again, like Crossmaglen). Dungannon Academy have won McRory/Hogan cups, Omagh do well, and Holy Trinity/St Ciarans Ballygawley have in the other grade (name escapes me). I even recall Joseph’s in Coalisland achieving in their competition. I’m sure there’s another high school in Dungannon too.

You also have high schools in Carrickmore, Strabane, Donaghmore. Do we have as many? Ronan’s in Lurgan, Patrick’s in Armagh, Keady and Cross. Are there any more? Portadown school team is non-existent as far as I’m aware.

All that success at school level matches up with success at Minor county level, then u20, and ultimately senior.

St Pauls Bessbrook. They were competing well at MacRory a few years ago and a good few current panel members played for them. Armagh would always have a brave few between the Abbey and St Colman’s as well.

 

[bcb1]

I have always said you can trace the 2002 team back to excellent work done in St Colman’s and the Abbey coupled with a very competitive senior club scene. We were at an exceptional level and the likes of Mullaghbawn, Dromintee, Pearse Ogs and Clans were often our hardest games on the way to winning Ulster’s and AIs. That just isn’t there anymore. Clubs that win Armagh are no longer pushing on in Ulster, ourselves included, and therefore the general level of quality is not as high as it previously was.

A real hard look needs to be had as the same voices are being heard with very little changing.

 

[pablo]

Tyrone didn’t have a tradition of success, same as ourselves. Until Crossmaglen came along (which I think did instill some confidence into the county setup), Armagh teams didn’t have much success.

I can’t help thinking that the schools setup in Tyrone is a huge help. Boys grow up successful, knowing how to win, expect to win (again, like Crossmaglen). Dungannon Academy have won McRory/Hogan cups, Omagh do well, and Holy Trinity/St Ciarans Ballygawley have in the other grade (name escapes me). I even recall Joseph’s in Coalisland achieving in their competition. I’m sure there’s another high school in Dungannon too.

You also have high schools in Carrickmore, Strabane, Donaghmore. Do we have as many? Ronan’s in Lurgan, Patrick’s in Armagh, Keady and Cross. Are there any more? Portadown school team is non-existent as far as I’m aware.

All that success at school level matches up with success at Minor county level, then u20, and ultimately senior.

I think a tradition of success and winning comes from tight competition. I feel Armagh success in the noughties initiated with the Mullaghbawn-Cross rivalry. That pushed ultimately pushed Cross on to their All Ireland breakthroughs and then fed forward to Armagh team. But all that would not have been possible without a tight and competitive local club championship. Armagh 199-2005 had players who had been involved in those wars at club level and were used to the heat of battle.
I think you make a key point about schools. There is that tradition in Tyrone, but really we should be no slouches in that department. I don't think we have at all utilize that link with the schools to meaningfully translate at a county level. We have St Pauls, St Pats, St Ronan's plus a sizable Armagh presence at the Abbey and St Colmans. These collectively should be a great platform for feeding into our underage, but I don't get the feeling they are been used as well as they could be

 

[pablo]

I have always said you can trace the 2002 team back to excellent work done in St Colman’s and the Abbey coupled with a very competitive senior club scene. We were at an exceptional level and the likes of Mullaghbawn, Dromintee, Pearse Ogs and Clans were often our hardest games on the way to winning Ulster’s and AIs. That just isn’t there anymore. Clubs that win Armagh are no longer pushing on in Ulster, ourselves included, and therefore the general level of quality is not as high as it previously was.

A real hard look needs to be had as the same voices are being heard with very little changing.

sorry-just seen this after I posted. If I had read this, I would not have posted as this summarizes things perfectly

 

[Savo01]

While there are many factors involved in the making of a good county team and luck will always play a huge factor in it, the manager is the most vital part I feel. Joe proved this in 02, Harte in o3 and Dooher and Logan this year. Below is the Donegal team that lost 2-14 - 0-11 to Armagh in Cross in 2010. If you remember the game was pretty much over after 8 minutes when Clarke had his second goal. Armagh were without Ronan Clarke, Brian Mallon, Ryan Henderson and Kieran Toner fo this game too. Yet as we all know, Donegal went on to dominate Ulster for the next couple of years and how many of the team below were All Ireland winners a mere 2 years later?

DONEGAL: P Durcan; P McGrath, N McGee, K Lacey; M Maguire, B Dunnion, F McGlynn; N Gallagher (0-1), K Cassidy; M McHugh (0-1), R Kavanagh, D Walsh; C McFadden (0-1), M Murphy (0-6, 0-4 frees), C Dunne. Subs: E Wade for McGrath (13 mins), E McGee for Maguire (31 mins), C Toye for Dunne (half-time), A Hanlon for McFadden (47 mins).

 

[winsamsoon]

I def think a new appraoch is needed within the Armagh set up. I feel the talent is most definetly there to be competing in the top 6. Domestic league strength is a key thing aswell and I feel Armagh club football is rightly behind the likes of Tyrone. That said it was a poor enough All Ireland series .

 

[Armagh_paul]

While there are many factors involved in the making of a good county team and luck will always play a huge factor in it, the manager is the most vital part I feel. Joe proved this in 02, Harte in o3 and Dooher and Logan this year. Below is the Donegal team that lost 2-14 - 0-11 to Armagh in Cross in 2010. If you remember the game was pretty much over after 8 minutes when Clarke had his second goal. Armagh were without Ronan Clarke, Brian Mallon, Ryan Henderson and Kieran Toner fo this game too. Yet as we all know, Donegal went on to dominate Ulster for the next couple of years and how many of the team below were All Ireland winners a mere 2 years later?

DONEGAL: P Durcan; P McGrath, N McGee, K Lacey; M Maguire, B Dunnion, F McGlynn; N Gallagher (0-1), K Cassidy; M McHugh (0-1), R Kavanagh, D Walsh; C McFadden (0-1), M Murphy (0-6, 0-4 frees), C Dunne. Subs: E Wade for McGrath (13 mins), E McGee for Maguire (31 mins), C Toye for Dunne (half-time), A Hanlon for McFadden (47 mins).

Kerry aren't afraid to mix it up every other year. We have had the same manager for too long. Perhaps another crack of the whip is possible later on like Bonner with Donegal but for now we need a change and make up that 10% we are missing. I accept the fact we might regress but having the same voices in the dressing room goes a bit stale and players stop responding

 

[ragingbull]

Tyrone didn’t have a tradition of success, same as ourselves. Until Crossmaglen came along (which I think did instill some confidence into the county setup), Armagh teams didn’t have much success.

I can’t help thinking that the schools setup in Tyrone is a huge help. Boys grow up successful, knowing how to win, expect to win (again, like Crossmaglen). Dungannon Academy have won McRory/Hogan cups, Omagh do well, and Holy Trinity/St Ciarans Ballygawley have in the other grade (name escapes me). I even recall Joseph’s in Coalisland achieving in their competition. I’m sure there’s another high school in Dungannon too.

You also have high schools in Carrickmore, Strabane, Donaghmore. Do we have as many? Ronan’s in Lurgan, Patrick’s in Armagh, Keady and Cross. Are there any more? Portadown school team is non-existent as far as I’m aware.

All that success at school level matches up with success at Minor county level, then u20, and ultimately senior.

Dungannon St Patrick's Academy & Omagh CBS haven't won the MacRory since 09 & 07, Derry school's have been successfull winning the MacRory & it hasn't help their county team much

 

[ragingbull]

after Kernan the other manager's that were appointed haven't been good enough this is part of why we haven't been successfull

 

[PatMustard]

after Kernan the other manager's that were appointed haven't been good enough this is part of why we haven't been successfull

The manager is just one of many ingredients of the pudding. It’s not a case of just saying Kernan = good, the others managers = bad.

The two Brians laid the foundation for our breakthrough All Ireland, just as I suppose yer man in Tyrone laid the foundation for Dooher and Lohan.

But ultimately, the bulk of the players have to be there too, if you’re looking to get success. It’s not just a case of let’s bring in X - he’ll bring us to the promised land.

 

[Armagh_paul]

Things that need to be fixed at the moment in order of importance

1. Defence - Forwards need to be able to focus on their jobs and not waste their energy doing two jobs in the one game.
2. Confidence - We bottle it when we take a lead and let the opposition reel us back in when we should be putting teams out of sight
3. Team - Settle the team - getting there but still need them to gel we are hot and cold
4. Management - This should be the top of the list but can't do F*** all with it now, they are in place for one more year.


Did we a few years ago have a a county A and county B team a few years ago with the latter being a development squad?

 

[armaghlad]

All these comparisons with Tyrone are pointless - Tyrone is a much bigger county with generally a higher standard of club football, more competitive club scene, more schools competing at a higher level and overall a slightly different culture.

We are a smaller county with too many clubs, smaller clubs at that, and generally speaking a lower standard of club football. In Tyrone all senior football stops until the county is out, in Armagh we tip away regardless. So when they play their club matches in Tyrone they have everyone available, no skeleton teams and every team wants to win the league. In Armagh it’s a case of avoiding relegation from your relevant league and hoping for the best in championship.

In terms of management, be careful what you wish for. I don’t know who we would replace McGeeney with and how that new manager would be able to produce a decent full back line and possibly a goal keeper out of nowhere. By the same token a new manager might inject something that’s missing like Dooher and Logan. I know the players are still keen on McGeeney which at the end of the day is all that really matters.

 

[Armaghball]

All these comparisons with Tyrone are pointless - Tyrone is a much bigger county with generally a higher standard of club football, more competitive club scene, more schools competing at a higher level and overall a slightly different culture.

We are a smaller county with too many clubs, smaller clubs at that, and generally speaking a lower standard of club football. In Tyrone all senior football stops until the county is out, in Armagh we tip away regardless. So when they play their club matches in Tyrone they have everyone available, no skeleton teams and every team wants to win the league. In Armagh it’s a case of avoiding relegation from your relevant league and hoping for the best in championship.

In terms of management, be careful what you wish for. I don’t know who we would replace McGeeney with and how that new manager would be able to produce a decent full back line and possibly a goal keeper out of nowhere. By the same token a new manager might inject something that’s missing like Dooher and Logan. I know the players are still keen on McGeeney which at the end of the day is all that really matters.

Don’t agree with this. Maybe we are smaller geographically but definitely not in terms of playing population! We can and should be operating at as high a level. All of the things in bold can be fixed but it’s in our hands as a county to do this.

Didn’t know all senior football stopped in Tyrone until the county was out? So they havent been playing league games all summer? Absolutely ridiculous and unfair on 100’s of club players if so.

 

[Savo01]

The manager is just one of many ingredients of the pudding. It’s not a case of just saying Kernan = good, the others managers = bad.

The two Brians laid the foundation for our breakthrough All Ireland, just as I suppose yer man in Tyrone laid the foundation for Dooher and Lohan.

But ultimately, the bulk of the players have to be there too, if you’re looking to get success. It’s not just a case of let’s bring in X - he’ll bring us to the promised land.

But it is becoming increasingly clear a strong management with a clear vision is having more and more of an impact on teams. McGeeney has had 13 years with 2 counties and not won a Provincial Final. As someone here said, run at Armagh and they panic, it has been that way for the whole of the 6 years as far as I can remember. In my heart of hearts Oisin McConville and Tony McEntee who've had success at club and college level, would I feel get more out of this team and not be shipping 3/4 goals in games!

 

[Savo01]

All these comparisons with Tyrone are pointless - Tyrone is a much bigger county with generally a higher standard of club football, more competitive club scene, more schools competing at a higher level and overall a slightly different culture.

We are a smaller county with too many clubs, smaller clubs at that, and generally speaking a lower standard of club football. In Tyrone all senior football stops until the county is out, in Armagh we tip away regardless. So when they play their club matches in Tyrone they have everyone available, no skeleton teams and every team wants to win the league. In Armagh it’s a case of avoiding relegation from your relevant league and hoping for the best in championship.

Since 2002 when Errigal won it, only 1 Tyrone club has made the Ulster Final, in 2014 when they lost, so is it that strong? One thing I will say for our squad and management is that we have a good spread of players from clubs in all divisions. Surely that suggests decent strength in the Armagh game? Only Forker from the county champions was on the team this year.

 

[armaghtimmy]

All these comparisons with Tyrone are pointless - Tyrone is a much bigger county with generally a higher standard of club football, more competitive club scene, more schools competing at a higher level and overall a slightly different culture.

We are a smaller county with too many clubs, smaller clubs at that, and generally speaking a lower standard of club football. In Tyrone all senior football stops until the county is out, in Armagh we tip away regardless. So when they play their club matches in Tyrone they have everyone available, no skeleton teams and every team wants to win the league. In Armagh it’s a case of avoiding relegation from your relevant league and hoping for the best in championship.

In terms of management, be careful what you wish for. I don’t know who we would replace McGeeney with and how that new manager would be able to produce a decent full back line and possibly a goal keeper out of nowhere. By the same token a new manager might inject something that’s missing like Dooher and Logan. I know the players are still keen on McGeeney which at the end of the day is all that really matters.

That is 100% completely wrong- Edendork with 3 county players currently bottom of the Div 1 league on 1 point. Carrickmore with none/very few tyrone players currently top. All have played 9 games also btw.