Armagh v Fermanagh (A) USFC 2018

William Of Orange

Well-Known Member
Super 8s, are you actually serious??

We could get London Round 1 , Leitrim Round 2 , The likes of Wicklow could be still available in Round 3 then who knows .....Beaten finalists teams have a bad record in Round 4 .....then again if I buy a lotto ticket I could be a Millionaire.
 

Big Jim

Well-Known Member
We could get London Round 1 , Leitrim Round 2 , The likes of Wicklow could be still available in Round 3 then who knows .....Beaten finalists teams have a bad record in Round 4 .....then again if I buy a lotto ticket I could be a Millionaire.
Ah sure who wants to be a millionaire now anyway that that Clarkson prick presents it?
 

Throwball

Well-Known Member
We could get London Round 1 , Leitrim Round 2 , The likes of Wicklow could be still available in Round 3 then who knows .....Beaten finalists teams have a bad record in Round 4 .....then again if I buy a lotto ticket I could be a Millionaire.

I wouldn't mind a first round win and then Fermanagh again. That will tell us if Saturday was a bleep or - as seems probable at the minute - we really are in a mess. It would also make me smile if we could wipe the smile of the Fermanagh faces. The trash talking, diving etc drives me mad.
 

Dinny

New Member
Firstly no apology necessary @Rufus T Firefly , but thank you. Yes this is my first time on this forum, I was on the last. Secondly, I agree with @Throwball - I would love to meet Fermanagh again. I think Rory Gallagher was very disrespectful to McGeeney, who gets a hard time no matter what he does. Saturday was a blip, these things happen. I've been on other forums and everyone says they are still wary of Armagh in the qualifiers since everyone will underestimate them. The future is bright, it will be a long Summer I believe.
 

ShiftYa

Well-Known Member
I wish I could share Dinnys optimistic views but my personal view is that armagh football been going downhill for too long now. At present we're no better than our league position suggests. That yoyo position between div 2 and 3. Where Imo in ulster's bottom teir of football and its hard to argue against this given our last 3 campaigns, Cavan, Down, Fermanagh. Thats 3 times in a row I've left the grounds in disgust. Something needs to change before antrim overtakes us. As for super 8s, I hope not. We all seen how Tyrone embarrassed us last year and then went on in turn to be made fools of by Dublin. That's how far we are from the top the gulf in class between us a Dublin is immense. Imagine us having to play Dublin, Kerry Galway for example in super 8. Do you really want to see that this year?
 

Berfaboy77

Active Member
Would'nt be a bad wee side, if the players were available :rolleyes:

B Hughes (Carrickcruppen)

P Burns (Forkhill), A McKay (Dromintee), J Morgan (Crossmaglen Rangers)

A Forker (Maghery), D McKenna (Harps), P Hughes (Crossmaglen Rangers)

C Vernon (Harps), S Sheridan (Forkhill)

E Raffery (Grange), R Grugan (Ballymacnab), O O'Neill (Crossmaglen Rangers)

R O'Neill (Crossmaglen Rangers), A Murnin (St Pauls) S Campbell (Clan na Gael)

Impact Subs
U Lennon (Harps), N Grimley (Madden), G McParland (Ballymacnab)
 

PatMustard

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't mind a first round win and then Fermanagh again. That will tell us if Saturday was a bleep or - as seems probable at the minute - we really are in a mess. It would also make me smile if we could wipe the smile of the Fermanagh faces. The trash talking, diving etc drives me mad.

Fermanagh had a job to do, and they did it by whatever means necessary. Diving, feigning injury, time wasting etc etc. All teams do it. It's not a new thing.

If we were in the same position, we'd be applauding our lads for getting the job done.
 
It's been a while since I posted anything worth saying, and this probably isn't going to be worth anything in any case.

Firstly, our performance on Saturday evening was awful, one dimensional and fractured at best. I don't think anyone would say anything more positive than that. I can also understand how others would have much more critical assessments.

I was behind the goals at the Cornagrade end of Brewster Park (where the wind was roaring through the branches of the trees). I had the pleasure, and displeasure, of being with about a dozen Fermanagh men from Enniskillen, Irvinestown and Edereny. In fairness all good lads. They all had skin in the game; players from their respective clubs all lined out. There was a real buzz from them before the game and I'd have lost money in the Roadhouse beforehand as each of them were resolute in their belief that this would be a solid win for Fermanagh. Each year, under whatever manager, they'd always be upbeat but this year they were different, cocky in fact. Fermanagh TV were out and about before the game and at least four of them said a five point win for Fermanagh!

There was a move made behind the scenes for Gallagher once McGrath was ousted. He asked for three things, full control of team affairs including personnel, full support from clubs to implement what he needed from players at club training and total player commitment to his standards. He knows what he got into, the limited player resources and the lack of quality in the county. Given this, the fans backed him when he brought Ricey to the mix. The resultant product is a team of club hardened footballers that know their limitations and play low scoring, low conceding, at times toxic containment football. Gifted footballers like Tomas Corrigan, don't fit the machine and sit on the bench. I heard he doesn't work hard enough to gain Gallagher's trust, that may change. Do the Fermanagh followers care? no, not one bit. The result is what mattered! It's dire, turgid but effective stuff. They will give other teams trouble. Is this what we want?

History has shown, and posted on a previous point by another poster, that we, as a county, failed to value the character and ultimately protect the legacy that was built in that 2002 to 2008 unit. It was mismanaged and whilst we had underage success the character and standards set at senior level were being eroded, devalued and frittered away. Banty brought success in bringing a young Monaghan team through but it was O'Rourke and Porter who added to the character created there. There was something to build on. The early character was carefully protected, managed and added to. Jimmy McGuiness had to do this in Donegal. He pushed out the lads with links to previous teams and was resolute in his conviction that this was the right thing to do. What he had however was a successful U21 team, which he coached, to bring through. In Armagh an abyss has been created and whether we like it or not the links with the past are severed and a completely new team has to be created, one with very few links to previously successful teams. To completely rebuild a new team with their own ethos is singularly the most difficult thing to create and I do believe we were going nowhere previously, limping along and thinking more about our reputation than our character. For it's reputation what other people think about you but it's character where you think about yourself. It's why I believe McGeeney pushed the reset button last year, he had to start the process again, build a new character set with those that will fully commit and unfortunately that takes time.

I'm not happy with what I saw, I'm not confident in the near term. However, whether it's Kieran or another, I do know we need to build a new unit, which is totally committed, with a mindset of its own and not one that harks to the past. I can see what he is trying to do and value his hard work in trying to achieve it.
 

PatMustard

Well-Known Member
Some good points there @Ouch it's Francie but sounds like we have to build a group of ruthless, obedient Robocops. I understand that's probably what's needed to get success. But at what cost?

What worries me is the way the game is going as a spectacle, and the amount of young talented lads who are turning away from the game. A Full Metal Jacket regime will only make it worse.

The Catholic Church waited far too long to make any sort of change and the GAA need to do something quick before the organisation is damaged beyond repair.

Oh God help us all. Arghhhh...
 

niall1980

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure about the rest of Armagh but certainly in a lot of clubs in South Armagh the appetite to play Gaelic football is diminishing. I'm not sure what the reason is whether it's too much of a commitment for some boys, choosing different sports, travelling, drink, drugs, work, laziness etc. but something needs to be looked at to try and get lads to want to play for their club/county again. Otherwise we are going to see clubs folding/amalgamating at an alarming rate in the next few years. Playing for the county is a serious commitment, something that should be relaxed I feel. Look at the likes of Colm Watters - has been in around the panel for many years now yet never seems to get any championship game time. Having seen Colm play a few times at club level he's a great player and would be a massive addition to his club instead of busting himself at county level to sit on the bench week in week out. Unfortunately I see many other young players who will end up in a similar situation on the Armagh panel. Jemar Hall - fantastic player but not getting the chances at County level and his club could be doing with his services. There are many players out there who aren't being approached. Look at the Club All Star's last year for example - how many of them have been watched/considered? I don't think it matters what level you are playing at, if you are good enough you should at least be given the chance regardless.

P.S Someone tell McGeeney you can't kick dumbells over the bar!!
I don’t think we are doing much with dumbbells. We hadn’t any strength at all on Saturday.

I’m normally very optimistic but I’m finding it hard to find any optimism after Saturday which is unusual for me. Maybe a kind draw will pick me up
 

Throwball

Well-Known Member
Fermanagh had a job to do, and they did it by whatever means necessary. Diving, feigning injury, time wasting etc etc. All teams do it. It's not a new thing.

If we were in the same position, we'd be applauding our lads for getting the job done.

I can guarantee I wouldn't be applauding. More fool me probably.

In saying that it is a problem the officials in head quarters need to deal with it. Too many have their own vested interest.
 

bcb1

Well-Known Member
What happened to Orchard’s Spartan approach?

It is 22 years since Armagh selected a Championship panel that did not include a single Crossmaglen Rangers man. That came about because of an injury to corner-back Paul Hughes, but still you imagine that the county team could have been doing with the likes of Rian and Oisín O’Neill, James Morgan, and even the New York domiciled Jamie Clarke.

Fifteen to twenty years ago, what made Armagh great under Kieran McGeeney’s captaincy was their Spartan approach. They went to a pre-Championship training camp but stayed in local digs, some sleeping on camp beds. They went to the salubrious Brown’s Complex in Vilamoura at the end of April to prepare for this game, while Fermanagh stayed at the local Lough Erne Golf Resort, and trained in Brewster Park, examining the dimensions of the pitch and fine-tuning their gameplan. You have to ask yourself, which county made the most of their resources? One final line, added value and all that; Fermanagh had five sets of brothers in their panel.

Observation from Declan Bogue in the Irish Examiner. Maybe there needs to be a simplicity brought into the whole thing. A small bit of ‘grounding’? Back to basics approach.... thoughts?
 
Some good points there @Ouch it's Francie but sounds like we have to build a group of ruthless, obedient Robocops. I understand that's probably what's needed to get success. But at what cost?

What worries me is the way the game is going as a spectacle, and the amount of young talented lads who are turning away from the game. A Full Metal Jacket regime will only make it worse.

The Catholic Church waited far too long to make any sort of change and the GAA need to do something quick before the organisation is damaged beyond repair.

Oh God help us all. Arghhhh...

In 2002 we were called robots, Stormtroopers, machines that had oil running in our veins. The media painted us as the bad guys and we loved it. But deep down we had character, conviction, skill, flair and the discipline to play to a system that worked. Are the All Blacks robots? What about Dublin? There's a core set of values that they adhere to and a team is built on that. I no longer listen to highly paid past players who somehow act as the fans' spokespersons. Washed up punditry for slow learners, harking back to the good old days. 15 years ago we were branded as thugs that no child would want to grow up to be (remember the Eamonn Sweeney article in the Indo), robotic assassins, today the same pundits lament that we are a shadow of the glorious skilful team that lit up the noughties.

The game is becoming all consuming for players, professional in all but name and I understand your point re: lads walking away from the game. However things never stay the same and it's those counties that seek to change that and innovate will win out. The challenge for Armagh, is how do we become the innovators again, not the media painted robots but the true innovators that we were back in those heady days in 2000s, albeit acknowledged by Keith Higgins' article on the retirement of McGeeney back in 2008.

Those counties that are in copy mode right now will only flatter to deceive.
 
Observation from Declan Bogue in the Irish Examiner. Maybe there needs to be a simplicity brought into the whole thing. A small bit of ‘grounding’? Back to basics approach.... thoughts?
He forgot to add in the five star Lough Erne Resort where the G7 group of world leaders stayed.......there's no camp beds there either. If Armagh had have won there'd be none of that and just like back in 2002 we were getting it in the neck for going to La Manga and now that team is being applauded for it!
 

PatMustard

Well-Known Member
I can guarantee I wouldn't be applauding. More fool me probably.

In saying that it is a problem the officials in head quarters need to deal with it. Too many have their own vested interest.

Well maybe not applauding applauding, but commending them. Fact is, all teams do it.

I'm not sure you can stamp it out. A player feigning injury is a difficult thing to eradicate, because player safety is paramount. And if there was a retrospective ban, they'd still do it if it meant winning the game. Black card is the same.
 

PatMustard

Well-Known Member
@Ouch it's Francie I know what you mean, but the game has changed since 02. The blanket was stitched in 03, and it's never been the same.

We probably were well drilled army types then, gym buddies, but we had some serious footballers too. Creative forwards and skillful. Those type of players don't get a look in these days because of the way the game has went.

Skillful players are pissing off to soccer, basketball, croquet or Tibet and I don't blame them.

Ciaran Whelan said 13 a side last night. The game is too choked up. I'd even suggest 11 a side. We need to be lauding the Jamie Clarke's, Paddy Bradley's, Maurice Fitz's, not the Dolph Lundgren's.
 

POINTMAN

Well-Known Member
Guys, there's an awful lot of negativity around here. Ok, we didn't play to our strengths on Saturday evening but we should know that we are much better than we showed. We should take comfort in the fact that many pundits were as shocked as we were - Tomas O Se, Oisin, Marty Clarke, Pat Spillane, Ciaran Whelan. We have all watched Armagh and know this isn't what they're like, and we should look forward to the Qualifiers with optimism. There were similar sentiments here this time last year when Down beat us - but look how our players responded - 4 wins on the trot. I expect that in the first round the lads will show much improvement. I would like to see us avoid Mayo, Cavan or Tyrone. I dont think we'll be able to beat them until Round 3 or 4. Lets start to get excited about what the Summer will hold for us.
"We are much better than we showed"?????
What evidence? We are what we are - quite possibly the worst team in Ulster. Let's get real - too many good players do not want to be part of this set-up. We need a different leadership with a much more inclusive and open approach. I have no doubt that we will not beat anyone of note in the qualifiers and then will be relegated from Division 2 next year.
I said it last year & I now say it again - total change needed. In no other sport of industry would such repeated failure be tolerated.
 

Applecore

Member
I honestly don’t know how some describe this is a blip or just a bad game. In essence, the match has been a microcosm of the last 4 years. For the last 4 ulster championship games, we have been lambasting the performance as opposed to even the result. We might not have the players to compete for titles, but we should be competitive in matches. Losses to Donegal, Cavan (played an outfield player in nets who wasn’t on the panel and hadn’t been keeper since u-16), down and now fermanagh- the performances were terrible, couple that to the 2 championship defeats to Laois, the match against Westmeath and the hammering to Tyrone last year- the bland nature of the exit alongside an arms folded mouth shut approach from management has been an all too familiar sight for it to be a one off.

The issues run deeper than we had a bad game and can do better. There seems to be an acceptance that lads just don’t want to commit to the current county requirements... rather than change the actual requirements to give them an opportunity to play. Also give current players, a bit of freshness about them. Every year in April/may- players look so stale, it almost takes a defeat and sheer embarassment to kick life into them again. Just because Dublin are training 6 days a week, doesn’t mean we must follow... The objective is to get the best 15 on the field on match day... at the minute we get over trained robotic players who would rather pass side wards than make a mistake, zero flair and creativity. If armagh didn’t train once, they could have scored 7 points against fermanagh... training more isn’t necessarily better.

Last years cship run papered over cracks. Let’s not forget, we scored 1-2 in injury time in mullingar, otherwise we would have been dumped out in round 2... the whole set up needs an overhaul and a new approach in order to freshen current players and to target other players back into the fold. I get the impression that this isn’t geezers style. A great player, stalwart and legend of armagh football, but good players don’t always make good managers. This is a clear cut case based on the performance of the team in the last 4 years. My worry is the longer things go on... the more players walk away... including some of the older lads.
 

Benjie

New Member
I honestly don’t know how some describe this is a blip or just a bad game. In essence, the match has been a microcosm of the last 4 years. For the last 4 ulster championship games, we have been lambasting the performance as opposed to even the result. We might not have the players to compete for titles, but we should be competitive in matches. Losses to Donegal, Cavan (played an outfield player in nets who wasn’t on the panel and hadn’t been keeper since u-16), down and now fermanagh- the performances were terrible, couple that to the 2 championship defeats to Laois, the match against Westmeath and the hammering to Tyrone last year- the bland nature of the exit alongside an arms folded mouth shut approach from management has been an all too familiar sight for it to be a one off.

The issues run deeper than we had a bad game and can do better. There seems to be an acceptance that lads just don’t want to commit to the current county requirements... rather than change the actual requirements to give them an opportunity to play. Also give current players, a bit of freshness about them. Every year in April/may- players look so stale, it almost takes a defeat and sheer embarassment to kick life into them again. Just because Dublin are training 6 days a week, doesn’t mean we must follow... The objective is to get the best 15 on the field on match day... at the minute we get over trained robotic players who would rather pass side wards than make a mistake, zero flair and creativity. If armagh didn’t train once, they could have scored 7 points against fermanagh... training more isn’t necessarily better.

Last years cship run papered over cracks. Let’s not forget, we scored 1-2 in injury time in mullingar, otherwise we would have been dumped out in round 2... the whole set up needs an overhaul and a new approach in order to freshen current players and to target other players back into the fold. I get the impression that this isn’t geezers style. A great player, stalwart and legend of armagh football, but good players don’t always make good managers. This is a clear cut case based on the performance of the team in the last 4 years. My worry is the longer things go on... the more players walk away... including some of the older lads.

A new broom sweeps clean.

Start afresh with a new system and a focus on playing football. All the current top teams have a system but they are still allowed to play ball. We were absolutely clueless and leaderless not only on Saturday night but for the past 4 years. really what have we to show, an O'Fiach cup and a division 3 title, hardly anything to cheer about.
Clubs and supporters would row in behind any county board and management team that was transparent and driving towards success from underage level.
How do we encourage young promising players to commit to the current county set up when they are told they can "expect to sit on the bench for 2-3 years before they earn the "right to wear the county jersey" and that club football in unimportant
A good dose of reality combined with passion and a desire for success at entry level are required if we expect any form of progress in the short term never mind long term
Failing that I guess it sat nav around Ireland in the lower echelons for the foreseeable future
 
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