Armagh v Fermanagh (A) USFC 2018

[ragingbull]

Entitled to your views, but...........UNBELIEVABLE!

Jeff!

 

[trooper]

I think everyone needs to take a step back and think logically about Saturday.

1) yes it was utterly embarrassing but we won’t shoot 15 wides every match and it’s not the end of the summer and potentially avoided a tanking by Monaghan
2) I think too much is made of players opting out. Clarke will never play for Armagh again but that is due to him not the set up, geezer etc. As for Campbell, 2 o’neills, Morgan, heffron, rushe and o’hanlon, all these players could be back for next year. They’re absence has nothing to do with geezer etc just ended up being a coincidence that they all had something else on this year (uni, work, travelling). Also for likes of McKenna, Lennon etc yes they’re good players but they’re not world beaters that are the difference between division 1 and 3 for us. And for the cross players, many of their players are past their county days and therelll be at least 5 on the panel next year (O’Neill’s, Morgan, Hughes, rushe)
3) as for Saturday I don’t think it can be argued it was managements fault. I’m sure the players will be first to tell you that they choked for the second year in a row on the big day and let Fermanagh make us play their game. Are we forgetting that we were the better team against them twice this year?
4) I personally believe we should all back geezer for as long as he’s there. He’s created a solid team with tremendous talent and a seemingly good team atmosphere, if the players were unhappy with the set up we’d know about it.

Nab14 this is just delusional
For 4 years we have gotten WORSE
It does not matter who is not there or who will be there next year as per what has happened every year with the current management players will arrive next year looking tired over trained playing with fear with I assume a game plan which is over complicated as they cannot implement it
Why should next year be any different to those that have gone before? These are not blips that is nonsense - these are the norms we continually have not performed other than maybe Kildare last year
Geezer deserves respect for what he has achieved as a player but as a manager he has failed dismally and should go
I don’t think we could be much worse with anybody else and I cannot see any potential improvement under the current management
From the academy to the senior team there are too many snouts in the trough
a complete rethink is required
What will any run in the qualifiers achieve
We will lose to the first well organised team we meet
Management is responsible for instilling a positive mindset for encouraging players to express themselves to believe in themselves but as far as I can see this management diminish players just want them to rigidly fit into the system- not that I could see a system
Players across all age levels be it academy right up to the senior team are being encouraged to stay in the elitist selected group to have allegiance to the county group first and club second
This is the wrong way around they should be playing more with clubs expressing themselves gaining confidence at a easier level and taking this to the county setup
The current setup is diminishing our players particularly the younger academy fringe players who are continually being made feel not good enough and not wanted

 

[William Of Orange]

Nab14 this is just delusional
For 4 years we have gotten WORSE
It does not matter who is not there or who will be there next year as per what has happened every year with the current management players will arrive next year looking tired over trained playing with fear with I assume a game plan which is over complicated as they cannot implement it
Why should next year be any different to those that have gone before? These are not blips that is nonsense - these are the norms we continually have not performed other than maybe Kildare last year
Geezer deserves respect for what he has achieved as a player but as a manager he has failed dismally and should go
I don’t think we could be much worse with anybody else and I cannot see any potential improvement under the current management
From the academy to the senior team there are too many snouts in the trough
a complete rethink is required
What will any run in the qualifiers achieve
We will lose to the first well organised team we meet
Management is responsible for instilling a positive mindset for encouraging players to express themselves to believe in themselves but as far as I can see this management diminish players just want them to rigidly fit into the system- not that I could see a system
Players across all age levels be it academy right up to the senior team are being encouraged to stay in the elitist selected group to have allegiance to the county group first and club second
This is the wrong way around they should be playing more with clubs expressing themselves gaining confidence at a easier level and taking this to the county setup
The current setup is diminishing our players particularly the younger academy fringe players who are continually being made feel not good enough and not wanted

Some good points , no footballer is encouraged to express themselves anymore and it’s not just us , Fermanagh had arguably their best player on the bench Because he doesn’t fit the system , McGuiness in Donegal got rid of anyone who talked outside the group etc , essentially as someone else said you are getting 3o robots in the squad who know where to stand , what to do when this happens , etc etc .

Not that systems can’t work if you have the right set up and person(s) in charge Like the Irish Rugby team , which is built on preparation and attention to detail all around Schmit , but here even someone like Zebo is expendable because he is though to be unpredictable,but the provinces are built around the International set up and the clubs are a feeder to the provinces , while the schools are a feeder to the clubs and it is working off a relatively low player base however the game is professional .overall the plan is at each stage to developing potential for the good of the national team which spins off down the line such as Leinster , these academy’s are working the Leinster academy has produced numerous players who are playing for Ireland .
I don’t think the idea of an academy is wrong and to be honest I don’t know if it is being ran right , results suggest it is not , but if it was this would have a positive impact on Clubs all levels , I would agree that players should be allowed to play at club level and there should not be any conflict or choice between Clubs v Academy’s .
I think it was BCB who suggested that primary school competition was a key on Cross and others devolpment and the players that came out of that suggests he could be right , my point is everything should feed off one another Schools , colleges , clubs , Academy’s , County interaction and inclusion all for one goal .

 

[stapler]

At underage level we may not be ripping trees up in terms of the county but St Ronans won the Hogan and between ourselves and Clann Eireann we have competed at a competitive level at Ulster in u16, minor and u21 for the last 4/5 years.

St Ronans Full Back, Center HalfBack, Midfielder and Center Half Forward all Antrim lads, i think 9 of the squad in total.

 

[ragingbull]

apart from Campbell,Clarke(new york),2 O'Neill's what other forwards are there in Armagh that's good enough to play for Armagh

 

[bcb1]

apart from Campbell,Clarke(new york),2 O'Neill's what other forwards are there in Armagh that's good enough to play for Armagh

That’s 4 starters in my opinion, nearly a third of the team. You add these 4 and you don’t really need too many more. The likes of Aidan Nugent,Ross McQuillan and Jason Duffy from Cullyhanna, Ultan Lennon, is White still in the set up? They all improve the squad.

 

[Eireogatron]

morgan, Hughes, Campbell, Clarke, O'Neill x2, Declan McKenna, Heffron, Rushe, White, Murray - only off the top of my head. 11 players that would start or be in the starting mix that arent available. Simply not possible for Armagh to do anything with that level of talent wasted. Is it managements fault they arent there or is it something else? Its "wipe the slate clean" time once we go out of the qualifiers and completely change the recruitment (because thats what its become, gone are the days of players in Armagh absolutely dying to get that orange jersey) & retention of players and find a system of play that benefits the players and maximises results. I think that needs a new face personally. If you look at who we have in the squad, who we dont and who we are overlooking its not a complicated problem to address - find someone to get our best players committed to the squad and go from there.

 

[weeskitter]

That’s 4 starters in my opinion, nearly a third of the team. You add these 4 and you don’t really need too many more. The likes of Aidan Nugent,Ross McQuillan and Jason Duffy from Cullyhanna, Ultan Lennon, is White still in the set up? They all improve the squad.

None of these forwards would fit into our current "system" of play

 

[Mickey Gormley]

At underage level we may not be ripping trees up in terms of the county but St Ronans won the Hogan and between ourselves and Clann Eireann we have competed at a competitive level at Ulster in u16, minor and u21 for the last 4/5 years.

St Ronans Full Back, Center HalfBack, Midfielder and Center Half Forward all Antrim lads, i think 9 of the squad in total.

I think this is a great point that is being missed

 

[pablo]

I think this is a great point that is being missed

5 (I think) of the starting line up are from the Aghagallon club, the reminder are Armagh club affiliated. Don't think it really dilutes the point that good underage talent is present within the county when also taking on board also that we have two other McRory level schools that were competitive this year

 

[bcb1]

5 (I think) of the starting line up are from the Aghagallon club, the reminder are Armagh club affiliated. Don't think it really dilutes the point that good underage talent is present within the county when also taking on board also that we have two other McRory level schools that were competitive this year

Exactly. In the last 5 years between ourselves and Clann Eireann we have won 2 Paul McGirr trophies and 1 Ulster Minor trophy in St. Paul’s. We also got to another Paul McGirr final and the final of the Creggan u21 tournament. There is talent there but just not being utilised right.

 

[mackers]

That’s 4 starters in my opinion, nearly a third of the team. You add these 4 and you don’t really need too many more. The likes of Aidan Nugent,Ross McQuillan and Jason Duffy from Cullyhanna, Ultan Lennon, is White still in the set up? They all improve the squad.

From a Cullyhanna perspective you could add Shea Hoey to that list.

 

[Naka]

None of these forwards would fit into our current "system" of play

Sorry what is our current system
Because I for sure don’t know what it is.

 

[Eireogatron]

If your best players dont fit your system the system is wrong. 1 or 2, yeah you can make a case for that but if it affects talent en masse, it needs changed

 

[Big Jim]

Folks you know I'm mostly in agreement with the conversation regarding the under age structure, but looking on successes over the last twenty years, it hasn't necessarily translated at a high percentage rate to Senior success and as usual this is non scientific and not inclusive of all or close to all factors. I've already stated my position and fully believe that it starts in schools and the club is then vital in nurturing that talent especially as the club season runs through the summer [mostly] when school is out [mostly]. I can't really see a pattern except that Kerry seem to keep on winning and only Dublin have skewed that recently. There's no point in trying to work out why Dublin have made the successful step up, because it's well documented about their population and availability of funds to throw at the development:

Year Hogan Cup Minor County U21 County Senior
1998 St. Colman's, Down/Armagh Tyrone Kerry Galway
1999 New Ross, Wexford Down Westmeath Meath
2000 St. Pats, Navan, Meath Cork Tyrone Kerry
2001 St. Pats, Navan, Meath Tyrone Tyrone Galway
2002 St. Jarlath's, Tuam, Galway Derry Galway Armagh
2003 St. Pat's, Maghera, Derry Laois Dublin Tyrone
2004 St. Pats, Navan, Meath Tyrone Armagh Kerry
2005 Knockbeg, Carlow Down Galway Tyrone
2006 Abbey CBS, Down Roscommon Mayo Kerry
2007 Omagh CBS, Tyrone Galway Cork Kerry
2008 St. Pat's D'gannon, Tyrone Tyrone Kerry Tyrone
2009 Colaiste Na Sceilge, Kerry Armagh Cork Kerry
2010 St. Colman's, Down/Armagh Tyrone Dublin Cork
2011 St. Colman's, Down/Armagh Tipperary Galway Dublin
2012 St. Mary's, Edenderry, Offaly Dublin Dublin Donegal
2013 St. Pat's, Maghera, Derry Mayo Galway Dublin
2014 Pobalscoil Chorca Dhuibhne, Kerry Kerry Dublin Kerry
2015 Pobalscoil Chorca Dhuibhne, Kerry Kerry Tyrone Dublin
2016 St. Brendan's, Killarney, Kerry Kerry Mayo Dublin
2017 St. Brendan's, Killarney, Kerry Kerry Dublin Dublin

 

[Big Jim]

OK so that table doesn't display as it should. Really looks like this:

 

[Big Jim]

If your best players dont fit your system the system is wrong. 1 or 2, yeah you can make a case for that but if it affects talent en masse, it needs changed

True.

I always believed that one player doesn't make a team, but a team can be shaped around a player or players.

 

[Big Jim]

5 (I think) of the starting line up are from the Aghagallon club, the reminder are Armagh club affiliated. Don't think it really dilutes the point that good underage talent is present within the county when also taking on board also that we have two other McRory level schools that were competitive this year

Yes and that then leaves 10 [obviously] that are Armagh club players. One or two might line themselves with Down or maybe Tyrone (I say that because we had a lad in 2004 that played with the club, at St. Michaels, Lurgan and played for Down Minors in the AI Final that year)

Assuming that's 10 available, add another 10 from St. Paul's Bessbrook, and maybe 10 from St. Pat's Armagh. Add a 1 or 2 from Abbey CBS and a few from St. Colman's and that makes a mighty skeleton of a a squad. Clubs not represented by those schools provide 1 each (and surely most will have at least one really good player remembering that some lads will go to the likes of St. Pat's Dungnnon) and you're up and running. The major training is done with their school/club because it's being co-ordinated by the county and the amount of running these youngsters have to do is minimised.

 

[jpowell100]

I think the point that Armagh could field a stronger team from players not available says a lot and was only highlighted even more by the performance on Saturday

 

[Jamie's Coffee]

I think I may have posted a similar point some time ago in another forum. The talent is in Armagh as much as it is in any other Ulster county look at the success of St. Colmans, St. Ronans, & strides of St. Paul’s in recent years. Also look at Clann Eireann & Cross competing consistently on the underage Ulster scene. Within senior club football this year there are prob 3-4 teams with realistic hopes of winning the county title so it has become more competitive. I don’t think it can be underestimated how a manager and his back room can influence a set up.
2010 - Armagh played Donegal in their last league game in Ballyshannon I think. We beat them out the gate. Several weeks later after our exit from the championship we met Donegal again in the qualifiers in Crossmaglen...we again beat them out the gate. 2011 Donegal appoint Jim McGuiness & go on to win an Ulster title, 2012 Donegal are All-Ireland champions.
Not many would have said the players were there in Donegal in 2010 yet within 2 years with the right guidance they were All-Ireland winners.
We are sitting with a manager who has lost every Ulster Championship game he has managed us in in fact the quality of opposition has actually fallen year on year. 2015 - Donegal
2016 - Cavan
2017 - Down
2018 - Fermanagh

It wasn’t bad luck or refereeing decisions cos each performance was as woeful as the previous like....what were they doing in their training camp??!? Time for a change