League 2021

[Armagh_paul]

Just a "and finally" no one mentioned the ref. I think that speaks volumes and again I honestly think he gave us a fair chance overall. It's all we ever ask or should ever ask.

Overall he was a pretty good referee - one of the best this year so far.

A Roscommon player hauled Grugan to the ground trying to get a free but Hurson was having none of it and gave them a Yellow for their trouble.

Would like to know why Forker was given a Yellow card though. I was a bit worried when the linesman got involved.

 

[Peter grimes]

For once it doesn't feel like a false dawn - we have had many of them in the past. This has been years in the making - for some (myself included) it has been a bit too long. However it does feel like there is stability, no offence to Jamie Clarke but it felt like his coming caused unintentional disruption and denied a player who does want to be there a chance to develop.

We are a few defenders away from being a team to be reckoned with!

“For once it doesn’t feel like a false dawn” is a really strange expression. Been wrecking my head since I read it.

 

[Peter grimes]

On kick outs. Don’t get too carried away with yesterday. Some teams push up and some don’t. This gives very skewed stats in terms of own kick outs won. Our issues haven’t necessarily gone away.

Blaine hit his man. But I’m terms of getting free and giving Blaine a target there will be much tougher tasks than yesterday

 

[Armagh_paul]

On kick outs. Don’t get too carried away with yesterday. Some teams push up and some don’t. This gives very skewed stats in terms of own kick outs won. Our issues haven’t necessarily gone away.

Blaine hit his man. But I’m terms of getting free and giving Blaine a target there will be much tougher tasks than yesterday

I think you have to give him his dues yesterday. If he kicked it up the field and we lost it the next kick he would use it short. If we kept kicking up the field I think Roscommon would have changed it up and could have won a bit more in the middle.

He was going for a long kick on one occasion but then stopped short and switched foot and kicked short to Finn.

 

[Peter grimes]

Yip. Totally agree.

Just making the point that the whole unit needs to keep working this on this part of the game.

 

[Armagh_paul]

“For once it doesn’t feel like a false dawn” is a really strange expression. Been wrecking my head since I read it.

Coming to terms with having a team that can play and put it to the big teams

Paddy O'Rourke didn't plan for the future of Armagh football, he was manager and as far as he was concerned the win are all that mattered and it would be the same with fans. Therefore he was putting together a makeshift team each week rather than having a plan - perhaps he wasn't expecting to be there for long.

Grimley managed to put a team together that was slated against Cavan for not defending but then made it to an AI Semi Final losing by a point to Donegal.

McGeeney came in and he did say things are going to get worse before they get better. There was a rebuild required in this Armagh squad (we aren't there yet, still need a defence and it would be nice to have some additional depth in the squad) and we all knew it as did McGeeney. However, the length of time it was taking was annoying a lot of fans. Another frustrating point was the little impact we were making in Ulster. The league is the league and how we perform in the championship will be the real test. For the seasons McGeeney has been in charge, we have been floating around D2 and D3 and at the first time of asking we have stayed in D1. It wasn't comfortable but we have ourselves to blame for bringing it to a relegation play-off as we should have closed out Donegal.

Roscommon are a team that are too good for D2 but not good enough for D1 and they beat us a few months ago to in D2. They and Donegal were the only two teams we could measure our improvements against as we have played both in the last 12 months. From being hammered 12 points by Donegal in Ulster and being beaten by Roscommon by 4 in the league to draw with Donegal and beat Roscommon by 9 is some improvement. McGeeney has taken his time getting us here and getting the right team in - Donaghy has been a great addition so far and the more he works with the forwards the better they will be for it. Defensively is where we need to work on and get the players playing at a higher level, it would be great to be able to go from man to man marking and then if needed transition into blanket defence.

Still improvements to be made but the team learned from playing Donegal and they applied a game plan that blew Roscommon away and this is what we should be doing to a majority of teams.

If I had to rank teams at the moment in terms of performance across the league. I would put us on a par with Tyrone although we lost. In that loss you have to factor in the amount of subs we had to use, 10 minutes of playing with 14 men (with all subs used) and missing a penalty. It could well transpire from here onwards that Tyrone might not be as good as they thought as they have lost to Donegal, Drew with tenacious Monaghan and hammered by Kerry.

1. Kerry
2. Dublin
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
= Armagh
5. Monaghan
6. Galway
7. Roscommon
8. Mayo
9. Kildare
10. Meath/Clare

If this was after division 2 last year I would have had Armagh down at 9 and I would have expected us to be hammered (I did say that in the past) in D1. Donegal and Dublin's trajectories are on a downward spiral. I would say Monaghan are where Armagh were at in 2006 - the team are having their final hurrah and will probably drop through the divisions as of next season.

 

[PatMustard]

The most important result of the last ten years was achieved yesterday with a certain amount of aplomb
IMHO this result is more important than any championship result as even if we won ulster or the all Ireland it can not give us division one status.

I agree that we need to be in Division 1, but if we were winning Ulster’s and All Ireland’s, I wouldn’t care what division we were in!

Don’t forget, we won our All Ireland from Division 2.

 

[pablo]

Was a strange league campaign given the condensed nature of it. I believe if it had have been over the 7 game format we would have survived comfortably ahead of Roscommon, Galway and Monaghan, on par with Tyrone and Donegal, Kerry and Dublin clear.
Yesterday was a solid performance against a team I have an irrational dislike for. Really don’t like Roscommon. They have an arrogance than is unearned. Anthony Cunningham the manager being the prime example of it so to win yesterday was a bit sweeter.

Feel the same.
Their supporters forum is called 'Stolen Sheep'
That is only positive I can think of

 

[Armagh_paul]

I agree that we need to be in Division 1, but if we were winning Ulster’s and All Ireland’s, I wouldn’t care what division we were in!

Don’t forget, we won our All Ireland from Division 2.

There are a number of reasons why maintaining D1 is important now more than ever

1. We need to develop at the highest level. No offence to the likes of Down (well expect Down), Derry and Offlay etc they aren't going to give this team the tests the need in their development. The year we lost to Mayo by a point, I would confidently say had we played in D1 that year we would have beat them.

2. Qualifiers are going to be a minefield now that D3 and D4 teams are not in them unless they win their provincial championships.

3. Sort of part of point 3 - if we were relegated in two consecutive seasons (it has happened to a lot of teams) we wouldn't be in the AI.

There is a big difference between D1 at the top and between D1 and the lower part of D2.

 

[Big Jim]

Would like to know why Forker was given a Yellow card though. I was a bit worried when the linesman got involved.

Yeah I missed it completely and actually told the guy (almost) beside us the the had to be mistaken as there was no reason for Forker to be carded, but hey, I've said it before, I was obviously wrong again. Never saw any highlights yet so might never know.

 

[Big Jim]

On kick outs. Don’t get too carried away with yesterday. Some teams push up and some don’t. This gives very skewed stats in terms of own kick outs won. Our issues haven’t necessarily gone away.

Blaine hit his man. But I’m terms of getting free and giving Blaine a target there will be much tougher tasks than yesterday

Agree with that Peter. That's why I'm saying hopefully it's part of an overall strategy that he's comfortable with. Roscommon did push up at one stage and then I could hear thon Kerry man shouting "65" and "Green" and various other codes which seems to have made him switch sides and length although I'm guessing at that. He could have been ordering Chinese take away!!

On Ciaran Donaghy, jeepers he does some serious running around. I'd have thought he'd have been stuck rigidly to the forwards, but he seemed to almost work every ball from the sidelines. Lad must have had a wild sore throat going home. You could see the lads run to him and take on board all he was saying. Maybe something in having such a high profile coach on the line from outside the county. Something we don't do often.

 

[Armagh_paul]

Agree with that Peter. That's why I'm saying hopefully it's part of an overall strategy that he's comfortable with. Roscommon did push up at one stage and then I could hear thon Kerry man shouting "65" and "Green" and various other codes which seems to have made him switch sides and length although I'm guessing at that. He could have been ordering Chinese take away!!

On Ciaran Donaghy, jeepers he does some serious running around. I'd have thought he'd have been stuck rigidly to the forwards, but he seemed to almost work every ball from the sidelines. Lad must have had a wild sore throat going home. You could see the lads run to him and take on board all he was saying. Maybe something in having such a high profile coach on the line from outside the county. Something we don't do often.

I think Donaghy is having a huge impact on O'Neills. Everything was off with Rian in the first quarter, he was making silly decisions - kicking a ball wide when he had space to move inside. At the water break I think Donaghy was over having a word with him and less than 30 seconds into the restart the ball was over the ball and it was Rian. It felt like that one point just kicked them on from there. This team really does need Rian to be playing from the first to the last minute and that might be a lot of pressure for him at his age but he has just got it.

 

[Big Jim]

I think Donaghy is having a huge impact on O'Neills. Everything was off with Rian in the first quarter, he was making silly decisions - kicking a ball wide when he had space to move inside. At the water break I think Donaghy was over having a word with him and less than 30 seconds into the restart the ball was over the ball and it was Rian. It felt like that one point just kicked them on from there. This team really does need Rian to be playing from the first to the last minute and that might be a lot of pressure for him at his age but he has just got it.

Hadn't noticed that at the break. That's interesting. Shows that young lads can listen when they realise that the "advice" is coming from someone recently (relatively) retired, but within the era to be an idol or aspire to.

 

[Armagh_paul]

Hadn't noticed that at the break. That's interesting. Shows that young lads can listen when they realise that the "advice" is coming from someone recently (relatively) retired, but within the era to be an idol or aspire to.

I have had this debate with someone before about having McKeever as defence coach - he was well liked and highly rated as a player by Armagh fans but outside the county it seemed to be a different story. I am not saying McKeever isn't up to the job but I do wonder what it would be like having an All Ireland winning defender from outside the county coming in to the management setup and have the impact Donaghy is having. As people have said previously, in club games there isn't much emphasis on man to man defence these days.

 

[Big Jim]

I have had this debate with someone before about having McKeever as defence coach - he was well liked and highly rated as a player by Armagh fans but outside the county it seemed to be a different story. I am not saying McKeever isn't up to the job but I do wonder what it would be like having an All Ireland winning defender from outside the county coming in to the management setup and have the impact Donaghy is having. As people have said previously, in club games there isn't much emphasis on man to man defence these days.

Can't help agreeing with that (godammit man stop saying things I can agree with or my reputation will be shot to hell).

Messing aside, it's pleasing to think that Donaghy is already showing as a positive force and is prepared to travel almost the entire length of the country to help out (regardless of what anyone thinks about expenses etc, as it's a long trek, few would regularly undertake for their normal work life). He had to see something in this squad worth putting his name and reputation to. Like you say about Ciaran (the defender one), class as we thought he was and he was, having an outside influence WITH him, could be another step.

 

[Peter grimes]

There are a number of reasons why maintaining D1 is important now more than ever

1. We need to develop at the highest level. No offence to the likes of Down (well expect Down), Derry and Offlay etc they aren't going to give this team the tests the need in their development. The year we lost to Mayo by a point, I would confidently say had we played in D1 that year we would have beat them.

2. Qualifiers are going to be a minefield now that D3 and D4 teams are not in them unless they win their provincial championships.

3. Sort of part of point 3 - if we were relegated in two consecutive seasons (it has happened to a lot of teams) we wouldn't be in the AI.

There is a big difference between D1 at the top and between D1 and the lower part of D2.

All of this is very true but particular emphasis needs to placed on point 2.
A lot of teams will have short seasons year after year. The changes to the championship will have a profound impact on the league

 

[Peter grimes]

Coming to terms with having a team that can play and put it to the big teams

Paddy O'Rourke didn't plan for the future of Armagh football, he was manager and as far as he was concerned the win are all that mattered and it would be the same with fans. Therefore he was putting together a makeshift team each week rather than having a plan - perhaps he wasn't expecting to be there for long.

Grimley managed to put a team together that was slated against Cavan for not defending but then made it to an AI Semi Final losing by a point to Donegal.

McGeeney came in and he did say things are going to get worse before they get better. There was a rebuild required in this Armagh squad (we aren't there yet, still need a defence and it would be nice to have some additional depth in the squad) and we all knew it as did McGeeney. However, the length of time it was taking was annoying a lot of fans. Another frustrating point was the little impact we were making in Ulster. The league is the league and how we perform in the championship will be the real test. For the seasons McGeeney has been in charge, we have been floating around D2 and D3 and at the first time of asking we have stayed in D1. It wasn't comfortable but we have ourselves to blame for bringing it to a relegation play-off as we should have closed out Donegal.

Roscommon are a team that are too good for D2 but not good enough for D1 and they beat us a few months ago to in D2. They and Donegal were the only two teams we could measure our improvements against as we have played both in the last 12 months. From being hammered 12 points by Donegal in Ulster and being beaten by Roscommon by 4 in the league to draw with Donegal and beat Roscommon by 9 is some improvement. McGeeney has taken his time getting us here and getting the right team in - Donaghy has been a great addition so far and the more he works with the forwards the better they will be for it. Defensively is where we need to work on and get the players playing at a higher level, it would be great to be able to go from man to man marking and then if needed transition into blanket defence.

Still improvements to be made but the team learned from playing Donegal and they applied a game plan that blew Roscommon away and this is what we should be doing to a majority of teams.

If I had to rank teams at the moment in terms of performance across the league. I would put us on a par with Tyrone although we lost. In that loss you have to factor in the amount of subs we had to use, 10 minutes of playing with 14 men (with all subs used) and missing a penalty. It could well transpire from here onwards that Tyrone might not be as good as they thought as they have lost to Donegal, Drew with tenacious Monaghan and hammered by Kerry.

1. Kerry
2. Dublin
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
= Armagh
5. Monaghan
6. Galway
7. Roscommon
8. Mayo
9. Kildare
10. Meath/Clare

If this was after division 2 last year I would have had Armagh down at 9 and I would have expected us to be hammered (I did say that in the past) in D1. Donegal and Dublin's trajectories are on a downward spiral. I would say Monaghan are where Armagh were at in 2006 - the team are having their final hurrah and will probably drop through the divisions as of next season.

Christ that’s a long response. I was only querying what a false dawn can feel like given you don’t know it’s a false dawn at the time.

Carry on

 

[Muckser]

Wondering on a few injured ahead of the championship...Paddy Burns? Mark Shields (did i see him in a leg brace?) Sheridan?

 

[Big Jim]

Wondering on a few injured ahead of the championship...Paddy Burns? Mark Shields (did i see him in a leg brace?) Sheridan?

Sure did!!

 

[Throwball]

Lucky enough to be in Athletic Grounds yesterday. Was worried before first water break but Armagh really controlled the game after that. Hopefully next year we will get a proper league programme. I think the most satisfying thing of this years league was that despite a plethora of injuries we were still competitive in every game.

Now for Antrim ...care needed!