Ulster Championship 2023
- Thread starter ragingbull
- Start date
Armagh_paul
Well-Known Member
I agree with the sentiment but not posting on a forum is not going to change anything. Everyone roundly condemns what has allegedly happened and if anything, talking about it will encourage others to speak out and realise they are not alone - I hope none of our fan base suffers in this way but if they do, we are all there for them.
Last edited:
PatMustard
Well-Known Member
Allegedly happened.
Armagh_paul
Well-Known Member
Edited post.
Rodgers may be used to tag O’Neill and follow him out the field? If not do we put Mackin on him who would be an excellent match engine wise? Who do they put on Murnin who is probably our main man at this stage?
Think the game boils down to the first 15/20minutes. If we can get ahead or even a couple scores down I think we can go to the wire and get a victory. If derry get 3/4 ahead it’s hard to see us breaking them down and not being hit on the counter.
Can also see us giving up the opposition kick out due to how strong they are around the middle which again plays into Derry hands if they get a few scores up. Giving up the kick out is so painful to watch and against the better teams in Ireland I think you’ve no chance against them if you do it giving them 100% kick out retention
Chrissy McKaigue will pick up Murnin you would think.
Think the game boils down to the first 15/20minutes. If we can get ahead or even a couple scores down I think we can go to the wire and get a victory. If derry get 3/4 ahead it’s hard to see us breaking them down and not being hit on the counter.
Can also see us giving up the opposition kick out due to how strong they are around the middle which again plays into Derry hands if they get a few scores up. Giving up the kick out is so painful to watch and against the better teams in Ireland I think you’ve no chance against them if you do it giving them 100% kick out retention
ragingbull
Well-Known Member
Bringyourboots
Well-Known Member
Have to say this is the most intriguing game for us in a long time. There are so many potential match ups and tactical takes it's fascinating.
We need to use the varying playing styles we have developed to keep them second guessing us. Kick outs are huge and I think for the most part we need to press theirs which, poses its own risks given their strengh at midfield, but hopefully reduces the impact of them building from the back. Everything we can do to prevent them settling into their system allowing their confidence to grow is vital.
We need to be ruthless and can't leave any goal chances behind like we did in the league. Work rate and defensive concentration will be critical and we can't allow our defensive shape to sit too deep.
Whilst the first 15s may be evenly matched where we can win it is with the players in our 26. I also think their need to nullify our best attackers weakens the way they play more than it does ours.
I can't decide if we are going to win this by 5 or 6 or squeak over the line but I do know I can't wait and it's only Wednesday!
We need to use the varying playing styles we have developed to keep them second guessing us. Kick outs are huge and I think for the most part we need to press theirs which, poses its own risks given their strengh at midfield, but hopefully reduces the impact of them building from the back. Everything we can do to prevent them settling into their system allowing their confidence to grow is vital.
We need to be ruthless and can't leave any goal chances behind like we did in the league. Work rate and defensive concentration will be critical and we can't allow our defensive shape to sit too deep.
Whilst the first 15s may be evenly matched where we can win it is with the players in our 26. I also think their need to nullify our best attackers weakens the way they play more than it does ours.
I can't decide if we are going to win this by 5 or 6 or squeak over the line but I do know I can't wait and it's only Wednesday!
FearArdMhacha
Member
Think it’s going to be really tight. I’m concerned about their ability to score points from well outside the scoring zone and I think they have scorers all over the field. They have much more height and catching ability in the middle so have more options from kick outs and are more likely to pressure ours. While we scored goals against a hapless down full back line and keeper, that came about due to poor attempts at points. We coughed up leads throughout the league and didn’t have it down the stretch.
That siad, they concede goals. Glass can fade out of games for me and we’re capable of scoring plenty to trouble them. They seemingly have come on from last year although they’re a bit untested. They went into meltdown against Galway last year and Dublin in the league.
If we can keep with them then in the third quarter go for the throat I think we can come out the right side of the result. I predict Armagh by 2 points.
That siad, they concede goals. Glass can fade out of games for me and we’re capable of scoring plenty to trouble them. They seemingly have come on from last year although they’re a bit untested. They went into meltdown against Galway last year and Dublin in the league.
If we can keep with them then in the third quarter go for the throat I think we can come out the right side of the result. I predict Armagh by 2 points.
Armaghball
Well-Known Member
Yeah they have that meltdown in them, need to look at what Galway x2 and Dublin did to them and try to replicate it. Even though we lost games this year we were always in them until the last and only lost by a point or 2 in most games.
Another thing we are excellent at (although I hope it doesnt come to this as my heart won’t stick it) is chasing a game where we look dead and buried, absolute chaos suits us, a la Galway last year last few minutes snd Mayo in Armagh this year. Think if it comes to the last few minutes we have it in us to kick on. Our bench is also far superior, with multiple quality scorers to come in no matter who starts.
northarmaghgael
Active Member
Think we’d be shooting ourselves in the foot putting Rian on Rodgers. Donegal tried it last year with Murphy and completely took him out the game. In fact was counter productive as Rodgers got MOTM if memory serves me correct. Like the idea of Mackin specifically used to track. Think we need a player to track his every move as he’s the player that Derry look to to link defence to attack
Welovearmagh
New Member
Disagree. I think our midfield will completely wipe them with Shane playing great stuff.
Bringyourboots
Well-Known Member
Absolutely but thats where the variety we are building into our game plans helps. They've seen us targeting the knock from our kickouts so will need to leave some of those bigger players further back and therefore not competing for them. We need to execute that ploy better and could do with moving 10 yards closure to our own goal so the trachjectory is just too high to catch but enough for a flick. Add to that the risk of the long direct ball which reduces some of their options further.
These are all the fine margins and subplots that could make this the most interesting if not entertaining game so far this season.
Armaghball
Well-Known Member
I meant they might put Rodgers on O’Neill to try and mark O’Neill out of it, Rodgers could track him all over the field.
The last thing you want Rian doing is having to track a man, only time you want him in our defence is if Derry are chasing a goal late on and start playing hail Marys!
Armagh_paul
Well-Known Member
We have the talent - how we set up has a limited number of possibilities but we need to be patient when playing them. No wayward passing, kicking away possession either. When we played most teams this league campaign, we always managed to frustrate them and clip some points over but always seem to have lost our way. Get the basics right and I think we will be grand and could go further in the AI.
THE Ulster final may give us a game to talk about.
So far though, none of the other provincial finals played in Munster and Connacht have left us feeling that the landscape might be changing.
The new structure of the championship this year may enthuse some teams and fans with home and away fixtures, but questions must be asked as to the merit of playing 24 games in total with only four teams being eliminated on the conclusion of the group stages of the Sam Maguire.
One can only assume this decision was a commercial one. More games, means more money for the GAA.
Sometimes you have to look past the spin and call it for what it looks like.
With preliminary quarter-finals, quarter-finals, semi-finals, and a final, Croke Park maximises its gate receipts.
Given the GAA are seeking to reduce the season into a narrow six-month window, it makes even less sense to seek preliminary quarter-finals as well as quarter-finals.
Alternatively, the top teams could have qualified from each group, leading into semi-finals, and a final.
Simple enough you would think.
At this stage, I am not sure if this split season format is working that well anyway.
Club football continues in earnest with only sporadic availability of inter-county footballers.
Some clubs are suffering as a consequence – dropping into relegation trouble with their 'star' player being unable to help the team.
A big part of the thinking around facilitating club football is that club leagues are considered as an irrelevance with priority given to club championships.
Meanwhile the county management are perhaps training them harder than any competitive game so the question of 'overloading' is at times misplaced in the direction of club managers as opposed to county managers.
The consequence of a split season has created a level of elitism with county players only available come club championship time, normally August or September.
Players want to play games.
The training to games ratio continues to be too stark.
Four to one ratio in training's favour, I suspect, remains a conservative estimate still.
The GAA need to scrap the McKenna Cup.
They also need to scrap the National League divisional finals.
Whoever finishes top on scoring difference or a head-to-head wins the division.
If the group stages of the championship structure find favour among the participants and fans, then it must move to a semi-final and final format for the best four teams.
One of the reasons why the inter-county championship was originally re-structured more than 20 years ago was an attempt (I suspect) to give many counties more games; there was an acknowledgement of the preparation and work that went in as being significant and it came down to one game or possibly two.
Due to my relative youth, I am unable to answer some of the questions of the time, for example, was improving the standards of the lower ranked teams a consideration for a 'back door' or qualifier structure?
Twenty years later – have the lower ranked teams then benefitted from any improvement in overall standards at county level?
I am sure someone with the ability to delve into key statistics could answer some of this.
I would hazard a guess and suggest that instead of narrowing the gap between the teams across Ireland this disparity in standards has continued to grow exponentially.
I would suggest that the levels of funding granted, in these last 20 years, from headquarters to county boards are a much bigger indicator and key driver when measuring the success of reducing the widening 'growth gap' prevalent with the GAA.
And this argument seems to have lost a fair bit of momentum in these last few years.
More games for any inter-county team is a great thing and it certainly helps to win the hearts and minds of our young people.
This is especially true when a 'carnival' type atmosphere arrives in town, with home venues now considered a part of 'group stage' football.
However, we need follow up coaching in order to help garner this interest and take it to fruition for our young people.
More coaches, means more funding to disadvantaged counties and areas currently underfunded.
This is a tough balancing act for the GAA.
Balance is something as important on the field as it is off it.
Derry goalkeeper Odhran Lynch and captain Conor Glass against Monaghan. Picture Margaret McLaughlin
Derry look like the type of determined county team prepared to forego any of the distractions of the outside world and possible 'balance', instead focussing solely on capturing the Sam Maguire.
The Oak Leaf are genuine contenders.
Not in a long time have Dublin looked so weakened.
Kerry appear to be moving extremely fluidly, however they have played no one of note yet.
Galway appear to be the form team, however, again, they have found the provincial championship they compete in unfavourable when we talk about 'testing'.
Armagh come in as underdogs to a degree, with Derry having both momentum and self-confidence.
With the relegation and indifferent form of the league now behind them, Kieran McGeeney's charges have done what they needed to thus far.
Nothing more, nothing less, given the opposition.
Armagh probably do need this Ulster title more than Derry, considering that they have already captured this particular trophy last year with these same players.
But inter-county football is such a fickle place that they will want to be as successful as possible, for as long as possible.
Winning finals is a habit so I would expect Conor Glass, Shane McGuigan, and Chrissy McKaigue to drive a continuation of the standards this weekend and deliver more silverware.
If Armagh are to win, they need a better performance than the one produced against Down.
In truth, this was a game the Orchard men never looked like losing and their strength and size really shone through, particularly in the tackle.
Derry will play around this and are unlikely to take the ball into contact.
I don't think Armagh's route one approach will cause Derry as many problems as it did Down.
So McGeeney and his charges will need to be more pragmatic this time around.
Conor Turbitt, Rian O'Neill, Rory Grugan, and Andy Murnin are all players capable of beating any team single-handedly on their day.
As too is 'Soupy' Campbell when 'on it'.
They will all need to play well to beat Derry.
One or two players performing to the standards required will not be enough against an 'entire system' finely tuned over these last few seasons.
The question is - have Armagh improved from last season?
Not sure!
Have Derry?
In my opinion, yes.
Too simple a summation perhaps for a final – but my rationale nonetheless for a Derry win.
So far though, none of the other provincial finals played in Munster and Connacht have left us feeling that the landscape might be changing.
The new structure of the championship this year may enthuse some teams and fans with home and away fixtures, but questions must be asked as to the merit of playing 24 games in total with only four teams being eliminated on the conclusion of the group stages of the Sam Maguire.
One can only assume this decision was a commercial one. More games, means more money for the GAA.
Sometimes you have to look past the spin and call it for what it looks like.
With preliminary quarter-finals, quarter-finals, semi-finals, and a final, Croke Park maximises its gate receipts.
Given the GAA are seeking to reduce the season into a narrow six-month window, it makes even less sense to seek preliminary quarter-finals as well as quarter-finals.
Alternatively, the top teams could have qualified from each group, leading into semi-finals, and a final.
Simple enough you would think.
At this stage, I am not sure if this split season format is working that well anyway.
Club football continues in earnest with only sporadic availability of inter-county footballers.
Some clubs are suffering as a consequence – dropping into relegation trouble with their 'star' player being unable to help the team.
A big part of the thinking around facilitating club football is that club leagues are considered as an irrelevance with priority given to club championships.
Meanwhile the county management are perhaps training them harder than any competitive game so the question of 'overloading' is at times misplaced in the direction of club managers as opposed to county managers.
The consequence of a split season has created a level of elitism with county players only available come club championship time, normally August or September.
Players want to play games.
The training to games ratio continues to be too stark.
Four to one ratio in training's favour, I suspect, remains a conservative estimate still.
The GAA need to scrap the McKenna Cup.
They also need to scrap the National League divisional finals.
Whoever finishes top on scoring difference or a head-to-head wins the division.
If the group stages of the championship structure find favour among the participants and fans, then it must move to a semi-final and final format for the best four teams.
One of the reasons why the inter-county championship was originally re-structured more than 20 years ago was an attempt (I suspect) to give many counties more games; there was an acknowledgement of the preparation and work that went in as being significant and it came down to one game or possibly two.
Due to my relative youth, I am unable to answer some of the questions of the time, for example, was improving the standards of the lower ranked teams a consideration for a 'back door' or qualifier structure?
Twenty years later – have the lower ranked teams then benefitted from any improvement in overall standards at county level?
I am sure someone with the ability to delve into key statistics could answer some of this.
I would hazard a guess and suggest that instead of narrowing the gap between the teams across Ireland this disparity in standards has continued to grow exponentially.
I would suggest that the levels of funding granted, in these last 20 years, from headquarters to county boards are a much bigger indicator and key driver when measuring the success of reducing the widening 'growth gap' prevalent with the GAA.
And this argument seems to have lost a fair bit of momentum in these last few years.
More games for any inter-county team is a great thing and it certainly helps to win the hearts and minds of our young people.
This is especially true when a 'carnival' type atmosphere arrives in town, with home venues now considered a part of 'group stage' football.
However, we need follow up coaching in order to help garner this interest and take it to fruition for our young people.
More coaches, means more funding to disadvantaged counties and areas currently underfunded.
This is a tough balancing act for the GAA.
Balance is something as important on the field as it is off it.
Derry look like the type of determined county team prepared to forego any of the distractions of the outside world and possible 'balance', instead focussing solely on capturing the Sam Maguire.
The Oak Leaf are genuine contenders.
Not in a long time have Dublin looked so weakened.
Kerry appear to be moving extremely fluidly, however they have played no one of note yet.
Galway appear to be the form team, however, again, they have found the provincial championship they compete in unfavourable when we talk about 'testing'.
Armagh come in as underdogs to a degree, with Derry having both momentum and self-confidence.
With the relegation and indifferent form of the league now behind them, Kieran McGeeney's charges have done what they needed to thus far.
Nothing more, nothing less, given the opposition.
Armagh probably do need this Ulster title more than Derry, considering that they have already captured this particular trophy last year with these same players.
But inter-county football is such a fickle place that they will want to be as successful as possible, for as long as possible.
Winning finals is a habit so I would expect Conor Glass, Shane McGuigan, and Chrissy McKaigue to drive a continuation of the standards this weekend and deliver more silverware.
If Armagh are to win, they need a better performance than the one produced against Down.
In truth, this was a game the Orchard men never looked like losing and their strength and size really shone through, particularly in the tackle.
Derry will play around this and are unlikely to take the ball into contact.
I don't think Armagh's route one approach will cause Derry as many problems as it did Down.
So McGeeney and his charges will need to be more pragmatic this time around.
Conor Turbitt, Rian O'Neill, Rory Grugan, and Andy Murnin are all players capable of beating any team single-handedly on their day.
As too is 'Soupy' Campbell when 'on it'.
They will all need to play well to beat Derry.
One or two players performing to the standards required will not be enough against an 'entire system' finely tuned over these last few seasons.
The question is - have Armagh improved from last season?
Not sure!
Have Derry?
In my opinion, yes.
Too simple a summation perhaps for a final – but my rationale nonetheless for a Derry win.
gael_force_orchard
Well-Known Member
Folks I know it's a long shot, but am a ticket short for Sunday. If anyone has a spare would you let me know. Doesn't matter where in the ground it's for.
Peter grimes
Well-Known Member
Very regrettably a unsavoury cloud has been cast over the occasion. I would want to stress that football at time pales into insignificance but at the same time I can’t help worrying that other matters might add something to the atmosphere that will destroy the day for children supporting both counties.
As for match day nerves. I have set the game to record on BBC and RTE. I know because I checked twice yesterday and once this morning. I am also recording the programme after (Octopussy on RTE) just and case we have extra time etc.
As for match day nerves. I have set the game to record on BBC and RTE. I know because I checked twice yesterday and once this morning. I am also recording the programme after (Octopussy on RTE) just and case we have extra time etc.
Armaghball
Well-Known Member
Hopefully it’ll be an enjoyable and memorable (for the right reasons) day out for all in orange.
I see Gallagher has made a statement through his solicitors and Derry have made a generic statement also.
William Of Orange
Well-Known Member
The weather wasn’t looking great for Sunday , so I was thinking the long ball into the square may be the tactic of choice and could gain rewards. However the latest forecast is showing it drying up in the afternoon with sunshine for throw in .
Bring the ponchos , suncream , wellies and sunglasses.
Bring the ponchos , suncream , wellies and sunglasses.