Ulster Championship 2024

[winsamsoon]

There are few types of people that go to watch games, those that will never ever be happy, those that want people to shoot from 60 yards out, those that want the game to go at 100mph from the start to the finish, those that don't even go but are happy to watch from home, those that cannot see an opposition on the pitch, those that cannot get tactics, those that have never played the game and possibly lack understanding, those that have played the game and feel they know everything and I would be certain I will have missed out another 20.

Heres where I stand on the game. It certainly wasn't a enthralling watch but it was essentially job done and looking back on Armaghs results of the last two years I think they actually play their best football against better teams. When a team comes out to play against them I think it alllows Armagh more freedom and I certainly believe them can beat Donegal. They could well have beaten them in the league final only a matter of weeks ago and depsite all the media punditry lauding Jimmy as the second coming he is but a man, who like all the rest of us will come down to Earth with a bang. I am hoping it's on the 12th of May.

Now the atmosphere was flat, after the game it didn't really feel like we were in an Ulster final and I am not sure as to the reasoning for that. However as the times passes, I am looking forward to our second appearance in an Ulster final in 2 years. Yes the draw this year was handy but the games still had to be won.

Down brought the packed defence and introduced the pace in the second half which did actually improve them, I wonder did they regret not starting the speed merchants but I guess thats a conundrum for them and possibly lads were injured. We knew this was going to be Downs plan because on paper they were the inferior team and Armagh had a wealth of threats. For the first time on Sat I actually felt Armagh were in control even when they went behind, they didn't panic and were able to hold the ball for almost 3 mins to execute the winning score. I heard Grugan speaking afterwards and he more or less said they had prepared exactly for this scenario and therefore this was the expected path the game would take.

The game now is all tactical, all zonal with positions meaning diddly squat. Its not just Armagh that are doing it every team in the country are at it to some extent. Some have more luxuries than others and can expand it that little bit more. The game is a running game to get shooters in positions to executive reherased plays from the training ground.

The ref I felt was hopeless, didn't allow Armagh to tackle at all in the first half and gave free after free for silly things. Looking at Murnin for the winner, I personally believe that is a foul and a potential black (also no real need to do it). But it well evened itself out and this is difficult to call in real time. I also agree that McKay was fouled/obstructed and the second Down goal shouldn't have stood. I believe Burns could also have simply caught the ball on the line for the first goal rather than drill it into the roof of the net, again though this is split second and theres no criticism intended, merely an observation.

I thought Armagh worked hard all over in a very tense game, our more flare players like Soup, Connatty etc couldn't get into the game were the space was choked out of it and ultimately it boiled down to feeding on scraps and for once Armagh got over the line.

I would love to see these lads get some silverware at the end of this and that includeds McGeeney. He lives every ball and every play. After last years Monaghan game I was frustrated as a lot of you were with McGeeney as I felt they really should have been more expansive. But I will be behind the whole camp 100% and I wish every one of them all the best for the Ulster final (There more I say it the more it grows on me)

 

[Peter grimes]

I think that talk that McKay was fouled in the line or that Andy fouled the defender for the Duffy winner are each laughable. If you stare at an incident long enough and remove all context you could probably make a case for a war crime.

Andy bolts out at speed, lays off the ball and tries to slow down without deviating. That is just a game contact. No foul.

Down attacker leaps over a flailing leg and bangs in to McKay. Not a foul.

On to the game ahead I will declare my hand - I am a fan of our kicking based attacking game and not enthused about the slow build up. Part of that is my personal preference of what I want to watch but part is also what I think suits the forwards we have.

The Duffy winner kind of makes a mockery of my general point, as we picked a decent kick pass in to Andy in space after a very slow build up BUT I think that is a rare exception. If we move the ball slowly against Donegal, I think we lose. Creating space needs to be prioritised over just retaining possession. In a slow game I think we will be trying to get shots away form challenging angles and surrounded by physically imposing defenders. We should be trying to avoid that.

 

[winsamsoon]

I think that talk that McKay was fouled in the line or that Andy fouled the defender for the Duffy winner are each laughable. If you stare at an incident long enough and remove all context you could probably make a case for a war crime.

Andy bolts out at speed, lays off the ball and tries to slow down without deviating. That is just a game contact. No foul.

Down attacker leaps over a flailing leg and bangs in to McKay. Not a foul.

On to the game ahead I will declare my hand - I am a fan of our kicking based attacking game and not enthused about the slow build up. Part of that is my personal preference of what I want to watch but part is also what I think suits the forwards we have.

The Duffy winner kind of makes a mockery of my general point, as we picked a decent kick pass in to Andy in space after a very slow build up BUT I think that is a rare exception. If we move the ball slowly against Donegal, I think we lose. Creating space needs to be prioritised over just retaining possession. In a slow game I think we will be trying to get shots away form challenging angles and surrounded by physically imposing defenders. We should be trying to avoid that.

You aren't allowed game contact without the ball being there (Which it wasn't on both occassions)

 

[BananaMan]

There are few types of people that go to watch games, those that will never ever be happy, those that want people to shoot from 60 yards out, those that want the game to go at 100mph from the start to the finish, those that don't even go but are happy to watch from home, those that cannot see an opposition on the pitch, those that cannot get tactics, those that have never played the game and possibly lack understanding, those that have played the game and feel they know everything and I would be certain I will have missed out another 20.

Exactly right.
- Those who are just happy to trundle along and get out of the house for the day
- Those who actually enjoy the chess match element of the modern game
- Those who think 1970-1990s football would still work against a mass defence
etc etc.

Those that cannot see an opposition on the pitch are the ones I struggle with the most.

 

[Armaghball]

Exactly right.
- Those who are just happy to trundle along and get out of the house for the day
- Those who actually enjoy the chess match element of the modern game
- Those who think 1970-1990s football would still work against a mass defence
etc etc.

Those that cannot see an opposition on the pitch are the ones I struggle with the most.

Lost count of the amount of times I’ve heard someone shout “kick it in” when theres maybe one man inside with 2 sweepers in front of him, or playing into a gale!

 

[Peter grimes]

You aren't allowed game contact without the ball being there (Which it wasn't on both occassions)

If you are telling me that if you release the ball just before contact and can’t prevent onward momentum and you make contact with someone then it’s a foul then we know what Jarlath’s no 1 priority is.

If a player jumps to catch a ball, doesn’t collect the ball and lands on someone that it’s a foul (as the ball is gone) then football is a very different game than I thought it was.

For me neither of those are fouls and fans (not directed at you) whinging about one and not the other is just daft

 

[BananaMan]

Are season ticket holders guaranteed a ticket for the Ulster final does anyone know?

Yes definitely.
Last year the Ulster Final season tickets were for the Pat McGrane stand, as were the Ulster Semi Final tickets vs Down.
Not sure if that will be different this year as season tickets for Saturday past were in the Gerry Arthur stand.

 

[Patrick-Armagh]

There are few types of people that go to watch games, those that will never ever be happy, those that want people to shoot from 60 yards out, those that want the game to go at 100mph from the start to the finish, those that don't even go but are happy to watch from home, those that cannot see an opposition on the pitch, those that cannot get tactics, those that have never played the game and possibly lack understanding, those that have played the game and feel they know everything and I would be certain I will have missed out another 20.

Heres where I stand on the game. It certainly wasn't a enthralling watch but it was essentially job done and looking back on Armaghs results of the last two years I think they actually play their best football against better teams. When a team comes out to play against them I think it alllows Armagh more freedom and I certainly believe them can beat Donegal. They could well have beaten them in the league final only a matter of weeks ago and depsite all the media punditry lauding Jimmy as the second coming he is but a man, who like all the rest of us will come down to Earth with a bang. I am hoping it's on the 12th of May.

Now the atmosphere was flat, after the game it didn't really feel like we were in an Ulster final and I am not sure as to the reasoning for that. However as the times passes, I am looking forward to our second appearance in an Ulster final in 2 years. Yes the draw this year was handy but the games still had to be won.

Down brought the packed defence and introduced the pace in the second half which did actually improve them, I wonder did they regret not starting the speed merchants but I guess thats a conundrum for them and possibly lads were injured. We knew this was going to be Downs plan because on paper they were the inferior team and Armagh had a wealth of threats. For the first time on Sat I actually felt Armagh were in control even when they went behind, they didn't panic and were able to hold the ball for almost 3 mins to execute the winning score. I heard Grugan speaking afterwards and he more or less said they had prepared exactly for this scenario and therefore this was the expected path the game would take.

The game now is all tactical, all zonal with positions meaning diddly squat. Its not just Armagh that are doing it every team in the country are at it to some extent. Some have more luxuries than others and can expand it that little bit more. The game is a running game to get shooters in positions to executive reherased plays from the training ground.

The ref I felt was hopeless, didn't allow Armagh to tackle at all in the first half and gave free after free for silly things. Looking at Murnin for the winner, I personally believe that is a foul and a potential black (also no real need to do it). But it well evened itself out and this is difficult to call in real time. I also agree that McKay was fouled/obstructed and the second Down goal shouldn't have stood. I believe Burns could also have simply caught the ball on the line for the first goal rather than drill it into the roof of the net, again though this is split second and theres no criticism intended, merely an observation.

I thought Armagh worked hard all over in a very tense game, our more flare players like Soup, Connatty etc couldn't get into the game were the space was choked out of it and ultimately it boiled down to feeding on scraps and for once Armagh got over the line.

I would love to see these lads get some silverware at the end of this and that includeds McGeeney. He lives every ball and every play. After last years Monaghan game I was frustrated as a lot of you were with McGeeney as I felt they really should have been more expansive. But I will be behind the whole camp 100% and I wish every one of them all the best for the Ulster final (There more I say it the more it grows on me)

There's also those who expect that a team that has eyes on bigger prizes, have arguably the strongest squad they've had in well over a decade, have pace, size, strength and scoring power and an incredibly well CV'd, highly thought of coaching team, would be able to inject some dynamism into the play through tactical switches and just sheer want to go and change the game. There are fans who see other teams playing with a level of quality and confidence, that may struggled early on against that Down set up but would have worked it out soon enough and wonder why after all these years, we aren't able to change a game against a limited, defensive team, who in fairness are fit and stuck rigidly to their plan? I haven't seen anyone on here advocating for just lumping the ball long. But it's worrying that we struggled so desperately to crack that Down team, considering the level we're supposed to be at and the quality of player we like to think we have.

 

[Armaghniac]

Yes definitely.
Last year the Ulster Final season tickets were for the Pat McGrane stand, as were the Ulster Semi Final tickets vs Down.
Not sure if that will be different this year as season tickets for Saturday past were in the Gerry Arthur stand.

I wonder if Donegal have many season ticket holders?

 

[Armaghniac]

There's also those who expect that a team that has eyes on bigger prizes, have arguably the strongest squad they've had in well over a decade, have pace, size, strength and scoring power and an incredibly well CV'd, highly thought of coaching team, would be able to inject some dynamism into the play through tactical switches and just sheer want to go and change the game. There are fans who see other teams playing with a level of quality and confidence, that may struggled early on against that Down set up but would have worked it out soon enough and wonder why after all these years, we aren't able to change a game against a limited, defensive team, who in fairness are fit and stuck rigidly to their plan? I haven't seen anyone on here advocating for just lumping the ball long. But it's worrying that we struggled so desperately to crack that Down team, considering the level we're supposed to be at and the quality of player we like to think we have.

In fairness, we did bring on useful subs, perhaps players that we were holding back. Hopefully no holding back in the Ulster final.

 

[Ard Mhacha 13]

Yes definitely.
Last year the Ulster Final season tickets were for the Pat McGrane stand, as were the Ulster Semi Final tickets vs Down.
Not sure if that will be different this year as season tickets for Saturday past were in the Gerry Arthur stand.

Season tickets for last year's Ulster semi final against were in the Gerry Arthur's stand, unallocated, this year Gerry Arthur's stand, allocated but yes the tickets for the Final were for the Pat McGrane stand.

 

[POINTMAN]

There's also those who expect that a team that has eyes on bigger prizes, have arguably the strongest squad they've had in well over a decade, have pace, size, strength and scoring power and an incredibly well CV'd, highly thought of coaching team, would be able to inject some dynamism into the play through tactical switches and just sheer want to go and change the game. There are fans who see other teams playing with a level of quality and confidence, that may struggled early on against that Down set up but would have worked it out soon enough and wonder why after all these years, we aren't able to change a game against a limited, defensive team, who in fairness are fit and stuck rigidly to their plan? I haven't seen anyone on here advocating for just lumping the ball long. But it's worrying that we struggled so desperately to crack that Down team, considering the level we're supposed to be at and the quality of player we like to think we have.

I agree 100% with this. It is the inability of our management team to read a game and make the necessary in-game changes that is their biggest failing, and what has held this team back. I had hoped Gilligan might have changed this, but not much sign of this yet. Don't get bogged down by slow defensive opposition- impose a more attacking game plan and play with urgency and speed. We have the players and very strong panel to enable us to go flat out for 70 minutes and more.

 

[Throwball]

I agree 100% with this. It is the inability of our management team to read a game and make the necessary in-game changes that is their biggest failing, and what has held this team back. I had hoped Gilligan might have changed this, but not much sign of this yet. Don't get bogged down by slow defensive opposition- impose a more attacking game plan and play with urgency and speed. We have the players and very strong panel to enable us to go flat out for 70 minutes and more.

Did the changes on Saturday not effect the game ? The last 3 scores were from substitutes.

 

[Hoops]

I agree 100% with this. It is the inability of our management team to read a game and make the necessary in-game changes that is their biggest failing, and what has held this team back. I had hoped Gilligan might have changed this, but not much sign of this yet. Don't get bogged down by slow defensive opposition- impose a more attacking game plan and play with urgency and speed. We have the players and very strong panel to enable us to go flat out for 70 minutes and more.

They brought on 4 subs, 3 of them scored and we won by a point. Is that not in-game management?

I don’t know what game some people were watching, we created plenty of chances and didn’t get the scores because our forwards lacked quality. Our tactics and gameplan weren’t the problem. The chances we were wasting weren’t overly difficult either, certainly not for this level. A couple were around the D, another couple ballooned cutting in from the side. Those should be bread and butter for an intercounty forward. If the forwards had their act together we go 6 or 7 points ahead before the first Down goal and it barely gives them any hope of a comeback, never mind putting them 2 points ahead.

 

[John]

Yes the changes worked but you could argue that they could have been made much earlier in the game.

 

[Bringyourboots]

I think to a degree we tend to adapt how we play to opposition styles rather than try and impose our own. That has the tendency to see us in tight games against opposition we as supporters feeI we should put to bed with relative ease.

It would be naive to think that we can just play how we want in every game or even within a game without taking some account of opposition tactics.

That said it would be great to have the opposition adapt their plans to deal with us and impose our game plans earlier (think 3rd quarter Dublin) to take control rather than get to the death and put pressure on the team to produce must score plays.

Whilst it was great to see out a tight game and I did say I felt we were in control, watching it back after our score we allowed them into an advanced position and gave a free (rightly or wrongly but not dissimilar to Galway and Monaghan games). The resulting kickout also went to a Down player not sure if time was up. These are the fine margins which we need to control to be on the right side of the result.

It would also be remiss not to acknowledge the impact of the season setup. League, provincials, round robins, knockout. Are we working to achieve fitness levels down the road? Is that limiting player performance now? Plus the best way to handle "the draw"! It must be a nightmare to try and plan for all of that.

Anyway for now I think we can look forward to a final and a grand day out where both teams want to win. Unless of course losing means you avoid the group of death!!

 

[niall1980]

Again, the management can’t win.
‘We want in game management to affect the game.’
‘We made subs who were the winning of the game. That’s in game management.’
‘They should have been made earlier.’
Unreal

 

[Wee man]

They brought on 4 subs, 3 of them scored and we won by a point. Is that not in-game management?

I don’t know what game some people were watching, we created plenty of chances and didn’t get the scores because our forwards lacked quality. Our tactics and gameplan weren’t the problem. The chances we were wasting weren’t overly difficult either, certainly not for this level. A couple were around the D, another couple ballooned cutting in from the side. Those should be bread and butter for an intercounty forward. If the forwards had their act together we go 6 or 7 points ahead before the first Down goal and it barely gives them any hope of a comeback, never mind putting them 2 points ahead.

Thank you. Agree 100%.

 

[JoeH]

Again, the management can’t win.
‘We want in game management to affect the game.’
‘We made subs who were the winning of the game. That’s in game management.’
‘They should have been made earlier.’
Unreal

You forgot to add
The made the changes too early - should have waited.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and it's just that, an opinion. It can be debated but it should never go overboard.
Unfortunately there's that many overboard the sea is full

A lot of wannabe managers. It's easy to sit in the stand and give out.

I think a lot of people really need to watch - properly watch - games from the 70s, 80s right through to recent times.
The games they think are great are full of mistakes
These days I think everyone believes utopian football should be on offer.
There's guys across the water on hundreds of thousands a week who can't kick a ball 20yds and we criticise our amateur players.

 

[BananaMan]

You forgot to add
The made the changes too early - should have waited.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and it's just that, an opinion. It can be debated but it should never go overboard.
Unfortunately there's that many overboard the sea is full

A lot of wannabe managers. It's easy to sit in the stand and give out.

I think a lot of people really need to watch - properly watch - games from the 70s, 80s right through to recent times.
The games they think are great are full of mistakes
These days I think everyone believes utopian football should be on offer.
There's guys across the water on hundreds of thousands a week who can't kick a ball 20yds and we criticise our amateur players.

I'm with you Joe, it's mostly nostalgia on how great people thought football was - "football was much better in my day"
I recently watched Armagh v Meath 1999 (my day) All-Ireland Semi Final. Good lord, it was horrendous. Even Meath who were one of the best teams in Ireland during that era had no control over the game - they must have just been a little bit better at dealing with the chaos.

I genuinely have no problem with people who look back at that period of football (or even further) and say they prefer it because it was more exciting - totally fine. But it was absolutely riddled with mistakes and aimless long passes. It certainly shouldn't be sold as more skilful or a better standard.