ULSTER FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP 2K22

Diarmi

Well-Known Member
I really think much of the reasoning for this defeat came out of the Letterkenny game. In hindsight we were outplayed by Donegal from the minute the draws were made. I have no doubt the appeals process distracted us in the past couple of weeks and clearly we had been setting up for Nugent not starting as he actually didn't start despite the fact he scored 1-6 in Letterkenny.
I still don't think we are that far away but an Ulster was our only chance of silverware. That in mind we need to steel ourselves for another defeat this year. Let's just hope it leaves us with a better taste in our mouths than this one.
 

Mickey Gormley

Active Member

'Armagh are big men when it doesn’t count – they showed no stomach for the fight in Ballybofey'​

Even Dick Clerkin sticking the boot in in his article. I've actually noticed on other forums a lot of Monaghan posters having a go at us along with the Donegal crowd... interestin

Being close to the Monaghan Border and Married to a Monaghanican there a glorified tyrone Fan club sicken your shite ;) I love saying least we won 1 when we were good.
 

Mickey Gormley

Active Member
I really think much of the reasoning for this defeat came out of the Letterkenny game. In hindsight we were outplayed by Donegal from the minute the draws were made. I have no doubt the appeals process distracted us in the past couple of weeks and clearly we had been setting up for Nugent not starting as he actually didn't start despite the fact he scored 1-6 in Letterkenny.
I still don't think we are that far away but an Ulster was our only chance of silverware. That in mind we need to steel ourselves for another defeat this year. Let's just hope it leaves us with a better taste in our mouths than this one.
Think thats what I was most disappointed about nugent not starting I think if Turbo Nugent and Rian had of started we would have been better off. I have never been a fan really of Duffy hes decent but cant say he is in the same category as the others. I know hes labelled as a bit of a goal getter but I was hugely diasapointed when Nugent didnt start.
 

armaghtimmy

Well-Known Member
The disappointment from yesterday will no doubt linger for a while given our high expectations. Expectations that our league showing justified to some degree.

I don't think there can be too many complaints about the team it was pretty much as most would have picked. The inclusion of Grimley gave us effectively 4 midfield players all who have superb high fielding ability and i thought that might help us when kick outs had to go long. Unfortunately it didn't work on the day. I also didn't expect our scoring to shots percentage to be as low - a stato out there can probably confirm or correct this.

The periods either side of halftime determined the result. Going in 3 down didn't seem insurmountable especially with our bench but proved decisive. We threw everything at them at the beginning of the second half and it was a joy to watch but with no reward we were out on our feet when they plundered the scores to put the game out of reach.

As I reflect I realise what a formidable established top tier team Donegal are and accept that we maybe need a another couple of years in division one to bring on the talent we have to really compete consistently the top 5 or 6 teams come championship time. We have made significant progress this year and it's been great so I have every confidence that this group will acheive success if they continue to develop.


A good draw in the qualifiers, a few more days out in the sun, get the orange tinted sunglasses on again and focus on the football to remind the rest of the country who are taking far too much pleasure from our defeat what we're really about. Not that we'd ever do the same.....
Have to completely disagree with this, at club level yes but this is championship/div 1 football. The top table. We dont have superb fielders at all in my opinion when compared to other counties at this table. Each man is probably a stone, maybe more, light. Crealey I like, but he was through around all day long. They are all built slight in nature. Rian Oneill is probably our best midfielder but you rob Peter to pay Paul playing him there. Perhaps we need to to look deeper at what's out there. Even if its a lesser player but a bigger more physical man. Mal Mackin, ridiculed by many, would walk into that current midfield in my view which tells its own story..... We complain that we give up kicks out, ok, so we press up, make the opposition go long.... then we need the players to compete, something I don't think we currently have. And thats also goes for the supposedly smaller nippier men to pick up breaks, they are not effective enough either
 

armaghlad

Active Member
Not a massive amount to say that hasn’t already been said, but probably a good dose of reality meted out to Armagh supporters, myself included.

Tactics were wrong, too many players underperformed, including key men, and that bit of luck needed just evaded us on the day.

We have a great set of natural forwards but defensively we are weak, both in terms of personnel and tactically. I really like Ethan in nets and he offers a lot in terms of presence and ball-carrying. Kick outs are an obvious issue (not his fault at all) which impacts the rest of the team greatly.

We don’t have 6 inter county standard defenders, not to say we don’t have players versatile enough to fill in but it’s a simple fact. We are also lacking in the middle of the park.

So long as this situation continues we will always be vulnerable against top 8 counties. Geezers hands are tied to a certain extent but I still feel he could have done more in terms of tactics and personnel on the day.
 

huggy2002

Active Member

Kicking Out: Why do Armagh fall so flat so often?​

185331348-057bc333-a69e-4abd-a123-21b5d04f2ba7.jpg
Armagh manager Kieran McGeeney walks along the concourse in Ballybofey on Sunday. Picture by Margaret McLaughlin






Cahair O'Kane
26 April, 2022 01:00

“As Sunday approaches and the column inches get filled, we hear more and more theories and stories about what each team is doing and why one will prevail over the other. At the same time, everybody is in fact hedging their bets (me included) just in case people ever find out that nasty secret about most experts. That is, they really are no better at predicting the future than anybody else a lot of the time.”
Kieran McGeeney’s 2016 All-Ireland final preview

THE hum of expectation buzzed in the ear all spring.
And as the sun bared itself in the blue sky above, Armagh and Donegal went to war.
Except one side showed up and the other didn’t. Donegal free-wheeled down the hill into an Ulster semi-final.
This was not Sunday past, but rather June 14, 2015.
Kieran McGeeney’s first championship match as Armagh manager turned to disaster very quickly.
‘Geezer’ had been on the line as assistant to Paul Grimley the previous August when they came so close to a stunning All-Ireland quarter-final at Croke Park, losing by a single point.
Even though Armagh had spent the spring of ’15 in Division Three and missed out on promotion, there was still a feverish anticipation left over from the summer.

Donegal barely needed to put their hands up to protect themselves. The orange jerseys just kept on running into the sea of yellow, spitting the ball up in contact and being killed on the break.
The wily Rory Gallagher preyed on Armagh’s lack of defensive height, isolating Patrick McBrearty early on against James Morgan. Ball into the sky, down it comes, goal.
Then McBrearty would go out and Neil Gallagher came in, causing all sorts of fresh havoc, and Armagh found themselves in an awful muddle. They hadn’t anticipated any of this and were 1-7 to 0-1 down very quickly.
In between times, there was the 2020 semi-final mauling in Breffni Park, when again much was expected but nothing was delivered.
Half-time, 1-12 to 0-3.
The wins were all the same and all different. 2015, the big men rotating inside. 2020, the use of the width of Breffni, pulling Armagh’s defensive ribcage so far apart that the spaces down the middle were catastrophic.
This time it was the midfield battle that did the damage.
To say that Armagh have flattered to deceive on the big days would be an understatement.
Later in the same piece as quoted at the top of the page, McGeeney delved into the area of tactics ahead of Dublin’s 2016 meeting with Mayo. It was revealing of his thinking.
“Tactics, gameplans and the ability to deal with the ‘what ifs’ have been drawn up for this weekend and practiced over the year. However, how players react to any given situation or adversity is always hard to predict. These ‘tactics’ act as an outline to how the game should be played but how this outline is filled in lies with the ability of the player to adapt to that particular situation,” he wrote.
In other words, managers can put systems in place but it’s up to players to implement them.
And he would have a point. We’ll go into the tactical flaws, but so much of what the Armagh players have done in big championship games has been meek and passive.
Yet tactically there was absolutely no secret about what Donegal came with. It’s the same thing they’ve been doing the whole time they’ve been under Declan Bonner.
A big line of men across the middle of the pitch, make the opposition goalkeeper kick it long, win the ball. That’s the basic jist, except they fall short on the scoring so often.
But then you look at it and wonder: well, Einstein, how would you have beaten that Donegal press yourself?
It’s exactly the same site as Dublin’s six-in-a-row was built upon, with their quartet of Howard-Macauley-Fenton-McCarthy.
It’s not easy bypassed. Against both Dublin and Donegal, Mickey Harte’s Tyrone suffered that angst for a long time. Just ask Niall Morgan about 2013.
Yet Tyrone fans would say that had Harte looked about Conn Kilpatrick and Brian Kennedy a bit sooner they wouldn’t have had half the bother they did, and you can point the same finger at Armagh in a way.
They’ve had no consistency of selection at midfield for a long time. A weekend pairing of Connaire Mackin and Ben Crealey was from left-field. Ciaran Mackin was a loss but he wasn’t the answer to aerial strife either.
The positioning of Niall Grimley and Jarlath Óg Burns as wing-backs was to offset the problem, but it became sort of symptomatic of the feeling that you have no idea ever how Armagh will line out.
Aidan Forker at three, Jemar Hall at 10 and Rian O’Neill at 14 have become the only real constants in the team. Everyone else is vulnerable.
At midfield, it’s been exacerbated by the decision to change goalkeeper eight weeks out from the championship.
Blaine Hughes’ kickouts aren’t perfect but he’s faced high pressure situations like this before.
Armagh knew when they prioritised Ethan Rafferty’s ball-playing ability at the end of February that they were going to Ballybofey in April, and how volatile an arena it can be for a goalkeeper.
After Armagh’s win over McGeeney’s former charges in Kildare back in 2017, Lilywhite midfielder Kevin Feely praised the Orchard’s tactics.
“They had a different system to what we had come across altogether in terms of bringing their midfield and half-forwards back into their own half, leaving massive space for their three or four forwards that they'd left up.
“It completely left our backs exposed and it was very naive on our part on the pitch not realising what was happening at the time,” said Feely, again underlining McGeeney’s point that it’s players that matter as much as tactics.
Blaine Hughes was outstanding that day and had been virtually ever-present since barring a few injuries.
The trajectory of his kick is much lower and flatter than Rafferty’s, which on Sunday floated up into the sky off his instep.
That was manna for Donegal’s monsters.
Stepping off Shaun Patton’s kickouts was borne out of the fear of his ability to drive it over the top but being dictated to by the fear of what might go wrong rather than trying to affect the game was a very negative approach to take and allowed Donegal to completely run the show.
Three Ulster Championship wins in eight seasons, against Down, Antrim and Derry, is a very poor record.
Is it too simplistic to say the qualifiers have always suited them because it’s less tactical? You find out who you’re playing on Monday, you go and play them on Saturday.
There isn’t months of intense studying done by the opposition and that’s where Armagh tend to flourish, just as Kildare did in McGeeney’s time.
No team will want them in the qualifiers, still. In unconstrained football, the kind that happens more often outside Ulster and in qualifiers, they're a dangerous outfit.
While Armagh’s line got plenty wrong at the weekend, so did the players. Their lack of aggression in the first half was incredible. If they’d played the other 60 minutes the way they played the first ten of the second half, half this stuff would be redundant.
And yet the players seem happy. Very few ever leave. It’s been a slow ascent to Division One but an ascent nonetheless, and from a very low base.
There is an element of Armagh fans needing to be careful what they wish for.
If – as some do – they want McGeeney to go, who do they want to take over, and would they do any better?
The past is easily read.
The future, not so much.
 

Influx

Well-Known Member
One of the quirks in the championship this year is that if we had beaten Donegal but lost to Cavan we would be in the same position we are now, as we remain two games only from the Quarter Final. Plenty to play for yet!
 
I think Cathir didn’t watch our first few league games where the kick outs where looped up in to the air and had no flatter trajectory. I think the hammering we got off Tyrone in croke park damaged Blaines confidence to try those kicks after they were highlighted on the Sunday game Tyrone prepared for them . Listen it wouldn’t have mattered if we had Cluxton in goals on Sunday If the movement out the field ain’t good.
 

JMcK

New Member
Not many Tyrone men on social media today calling the disciplinary system a joke with McKenna getting a reprieve.
If you watch this immediately after he brought the man to ground he punched him to the head- watch his left arm
 

POINTMAN

Well-Known Member
Much has been written since Sunday - many views about poor management, players not performing, poor tactics etc - all possibly correct to varying degrees. So what do we need to do better the next day - given that we will have the same group of players and same management?
A few suggestions:
Play Oisin O'Neill in midfield - great catching ability as displayed when St Mary's won the Sigerson a few years ago.
Play Rian in at full forward where he can do most damage and keep him there - and play Turbitt in close alongside him.
Play a no.6 who stays in the middle to stop the runners going straight down the middle (we were wide open) - maybe Morgan, but whoever it is they should not go forward and leave the middle open.
Leave Hall, Crealy and Duffy on the line as their performances were so poor.
Press on the opposition kick outs and try to play the game in their half - rather than letting them have the ball and saunter up to our 45 and beyond.
Play with intensity as we did in the first 10 minutes of the 2nd half (we should have scored during that period and would have been back in the match).

At the end of this county season, we need a major review of where we are - Geezer has had 8 years (I think) and his championship record is very poor. At the end of the day - it is the championship which really counts. I think we have a group of players who have great potential- who knows what might be achieved if we had someone with the tactical nous to take us to the next level?

However- that is for another day. For now we need to regroup and focus on the next match. We can still have a few more days out in the sun this year!
 

MrMaguire2002

Well-Known Member
Much has been written since Sunday - many views about poor management, players not performing, poor tactics etc - all possibly correct to varying degrees. So what do we need to do better the next day - given that we will have the same group of players and same management?
A few suggestions:
Play Oisin O'Neill in midfield - great catching ability as displayed when St Mary's won the Sigerson a few years ago.
Play Rian in at full forward where he can do most damage and keep him there
- and play Turbitt in close alongside him.
Play a no.6 who stays in the middle to stop the runners going straight down the middle (we were wide open) - maybe Morgan, but whoever it is they should not go forward and leave the middle open.
Leave Hall, Crealy and Duffy on the line as their performances were so poor.
Press on the opposition kick outs and try to play the game in their half - rather than letting them have the ball and saunter up to our 45 and beyond.
Play with intensity as we did in the first 10 minutes of the 2nd half (we should have scored during that period and would have been back in the match).

At the end of this county season, we need a major review of where we are - Geezer has had 8 years (I think) and his championship record is very poor. At the end of the day - it is the championship which really counts. I think we have a group of players who have great potential- who knows what might be achieved if we had someone with the tactical nous to take us to the next level?

However- that is for another day. For now we need to regroup and focus on the next match. We can still have a few more days out in the sun this year!
I'd be inclined to play them in almost opposite positions. Rian can orchestrate a game from further out the pitch. I honestly think Rian can win so much ball in the middle and Oisin at 14 would be highly effective.

I'd have Conor O'Neill at 5. Definitely not Grimley. I'd start Turbitt all day long and Nugent. I'd like the option of Murnin off the bench.

Sure I'll have a go at a 15 - although a long time away.

Rafferty/Hughes (Still undecided)

Morgan
Forker
McKay

C. O'Neill
G. McCabe (Still think Morgan can be 6)
J. Og Burns

N. Grimley
R. O'Neill

A. Nugent
R. Grugan
T. Kelly

C. Turbitt
O. O'Neill
J. Duffy

Murnin if fit definitely an option to come in as obviously is Soupy.
 

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
I'd be inclined to play them in almost opposite positions. Rian can orchestrate a game from further out the pitch. I honestly think Rian can win so much ball in the middle and Oisin at 14 would be highly effective.

I'd have Conor O'Neill at 5. Definitely not Grimley. I'd start Turbitt all day long and Nugent. I'd like the option of Murnin off the bench.

Sure I'll have a go at a 15 - although a long time away.

Rafferty/Hughes (Still undecided)

Morgan
Forker
McKay

C. O'Neill
G. McCabe (Still think Morgan can be 6)
J. Og Burns

N. Grimley
R. O'Neill

A. Nugent
R. Grugan
T. Kelly

C. Turbitt
O. O'Neill
J. Duffy

Murnin if fit definitely an option to come in as obviously is Soupy.
Only question marks I’d have there would be Duffy who I think could be dropped after Sunday and McCabe who did rightly at times Sunday but we need someone to shore up the middle- far too open and easily ran through. Maybe as you say Morgan at 6. Surprised McCambridge from CE hasn’t played as I think he’s on the wider panel? Definitely an option for next year if not this imo.

Soupy may have done enough to start but no harm having fire power on the bench. Rian and Oisin can obviously swap throughout as needed.
Shields hasn’t featured much if at all this year, think his pace and strength would have been an asset on Sunday.
 

POINTMAN

Well-Known Member
I'd be inclined to play them in almost opposite positions. Rian can orchestrate a game from further out the pitch. I honestly think Rian can win so much ball in the middle and Oisin at 14 would be highly effective.

I'd have Conor O'Neill at 5. Definitely not Grimley. I'd start Turbitt all day long and Nugent. I'd like the option of Murnin off the bench.

Sure I'll have a go at a 15 - although a long time away.

Rafferty/Hughes (Still undecided)

Morgan
Forker
McKay

C. O'Neill
G. McCabe (Still think Morgan can be 6)
J. Og Burns

N. Grimley
R. O'Neill

A. Nugent
R. Grugan
T. Kelly

C. Turbitt
O. O'Neill
J. Duffy

Murnin if fit definitely an option to come in as obviously is Soupy.
Maybe go all out and play both Oisin and Rian in midfield - would certainly enable us to compete and win kick outs from both ends- with Murnin and Turbitt up front.

But the old adage usually holds - whoever wins midfield wins the game! So we have to have changes there to be competitive.
 

Drivefor46

New Member
Not many Tyrone men on social media today calling the disciplinary system a joke with McKenna getting a reprieve.
If you watch this immediately after he brought the man to ground he punched him to the head- watch his left arm
Let’s not get sidetracked again this week and focus on Armagh.
Playing nearly the full hand in a dead rubber game in Letterkenny is where it all started, we have a panel of nearly 50 lads I’d imagine
Why not play some young lads & escape Letterkenny without any injuries & also without poking the bear!
We would have being much better off just staying in our lane and play the way we showed at stages in the league!!!

We got sidetracked and got walked over by a much hungrier team who was obviously railed up from the first game!!

It’s not a time for blame right now, but if we focus on ourselves for the rest of the year we might actually surprise people
 

Armagh_paul

Well-Known Member
Not all on management but serious questions are raised as a result of that performance at the weekend. Ultimately, the performances in Ulster over the years have been exceptionally poor.

Whilst D1 status was secured I find myself asking how close we really are to the likes of Kerry etc and have come to the conclusion nowhere near.

I was slightly irritated by McConville and McDonnell coming out with unfounded allegations about Donegal starting it, be that the case it helped motivate Donegal.
 

William Of Orange

Well-Known Member

'Armagh are big men when it doesn’t count – they showed no stomach for the fight in Ballybofey'​

Even Dick Clerkin sticking the boot in in his article. I've actually noticed on other forums a lot of Monaghan posters having a go at us along with the Donegal crowd... interesting

In fairness to big Dick hes probably only saying it how he sees it and our record on important games is very poor .
 

Optiman

New Member
Blaine had been coming on well as he continued to learn the trade. Yes, his confidence took a hit but I felt he was improving overall. Rafferty, I feel, would be a better asset to the team if played outfield in the middle third or possibly midfield. He's a great fielder of the ball and could be played anywhere up the middle.
 

gael_force_orchard

Well-Known Member
Im surprised the number of teams named that omit Rowland. If fit, for me, he starts at 6. He can read a game, is positionally sound and most importantly he can pass a ball. There is also a case to be made that with an injury to Mackin, we are again light at midfield. We have a midfielder playing in nets who can field and who has worked back to fitness from bad injuries, so a question has to be asked, is he better starting out the field. Paddy burns is also a loss at corner back.

For the rest of the season barring injuries, the strongest we can line up is as follows;

Rafferty/Hughes

Mc Cabe
Forker
Mc Kay

Mackin
Rowland
Burns

Crealey
Grimley/Rafferty

O O Neill
Grugan
Kelly

Nugent
R O Neill
Turbitt

That still leaves Campbell to come off the bench as an impact sub. Id also rather that Justin kierans and Cian McConville come off as impact subs to offer an element of the unkown. They have performed well in Div 1 club football. So give them them their chance. People will question my omission of Hall, i just think he is a bit light to play in a half forward line.
 

Geezersleftfoot

Active Member
Only question marks I’d have there would be Duffy who I think could be dropped after Sunday and McCabe who did rightly at times Sunday but we need someone to shore up the middle- far too open and easily ran through. Maybe as you say Morgan at 6. Surprised McCambridge from CE hasn’t played as I think he’s on the wider panel? Definitely an option for next year if not this imo.

Soupy may have done enough to start but no harm having fire power on the bench. Rian and Oisin can obviously swap throughout as needed.
Shields hasn’t featured much if at all this year, think his pace and strength would have been an asset on Sunday.
Geezer doesn’t seem to fancy Barry which is a surprise as I thought he’d be his type of player
 

Geezersleftfoot

Active Member
I don’t think ability is the issue, while we haven’t done a lot at underage of late, our players make up great college / University teams and club teams esp Cross are competitive outside the county. We’re going into our 3rd year in Div 1 so I don’t think talent or ability is in question. Without a doubt it’s a mentality thing. Our record in 1st round games is abysmal despite going into these games with hopes & expectations. The team has flattered to deceive. Let’s go back to 2010. Armagh beat Donegal out the gate twice that year once in the league & once in the qualifiers (and we were no world beaters). 2011 - Donegal were Ulster champions 2012 AI champions. They got a style of play to suit them & a strong mentality I was installed.
It’s not a root & branch assessment we need it’s a definite way of playing & a strong mentality- both are lacking right now which leads to choking in big games.
No disrespect to them but when were Cross last competitive outside of Armagh?
 
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