Ulster Senior Football Championship 2021

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Throwball

Well-Known Member
I still haven't worked out that game today! I personally think Armagh were and are the better team ...but sometimes fate plays a hand. I never liked Coldrick as a referee since he refereed the 2006 quarter final with Kerry and today McManus bought a couple of frees towards end of game that Sean Hurson or David Gough would never have fallen for. The Monaghan defenders were also much cuter in blocking runs and holding up play compared to the Armagh players.

Still a satisfactory season with a fair bit of disappointment. When are next years league fixtures out. :D:D
 
T

Throwball

Well-Known Member
On a separate note. What are the rules on the use of kicking tee by goalkeepers? Beggan never used one which helped him speed up his kickouts
 
P

Patrick-Armagh

Well-Known Member
It’s hard to know where to start with yesterday’s game, especially in the context of a young man losing his life and the importance a game of football in comparison.

The first half was so open and as a neutral it must have been a great watch. The first two goals were awful to give away and really cost us in the end. There’s no excuse for either of them - two men unable to pick up a ball under no pressure leading to a quick free which opened us up and then the goalkeeper hitting an awful kick out right to them. There’s no way as a manager you can legislate or plan for that. Their fourth goal was far to easy and just showed the problems we have in our defence - simple hand pass and forward run down the middle opens up our entire defence. We also hit some awful wides which also added up in the end.

Much of our second half performance then showed the other side of our game, why we as fans are so excited at what’s possible. It was amazing to see the come back and how well we played. Some of our play was breathtaking at times, especially from Rian O’Neill. To go two points up going into injury time was a fantastic turn around.

But then the same old problems of being unable to see a game out came back to bite us. I counted three chances we absolutely butchered to get scores which lead to their scores - there was a hand pass over the top that would have put McQuillan one on one with Beggan which didn’t have enough on it, Kelly then cut back and gave a bad hand pass which was intercepted and Campbell then tried to force a hand pass up the middle which was cut out. It was all so predictable and just sums this Armagh team up in so many ways. We should have seen this game out but again we didn’t.

As for the future, I’m not sure what’s best. McGeeney has done an excellent job to get us where we are now. Too often in inter county management managers are replaced after 3 years and there’s no consistency or continuity. We are back in division 1 and are a coming force again. Getting rid of McGeeney now, would mean back to square one with someone else and is there someone who could do a better job? I’m not against a new manager coming in - if McGeeney, the players and the county board think a fresh start is needed. There would have to be a very good manager available to continue on with the progress we are making. If he does stay, serious work has to be done on our defence as the all out attack nature of our game isn’t always the answer. Serious questions have to be asked about our kick out strategy. That was massive mistake on his part and can’t be overlooked.

In many ways I wish we had been beaten by 8 points yesterday and had never gone into the lead. It would be easier to take today. Hopefully another year in Division 1 will take this team on further but our defence is still a massive worry and until that gets sorted out, we will only get so far with our attacking play.
 
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bcb1

Well-Known Member
It’s hard to know how to summarise that game. Was unfortunately on the road for the first half and listened to it on the radio. Conleth Gilligan is a pleasure to listen to, very insightful, as I said to herself talks the game the way he played it, sees the patterns and the flow. We definitely didn’t deserve to be behind as far as we were but the goals were very poor. Naive to say the least. The lose of Blaine Hughes didn’t help but the keeper wasn’t at fault for Darren Hughes running untracked through for instance. Maybe the change of keeper so late in the day unsettled the defence as a whole which is completely understandable but some of the basic defending just simply wasn’t there and that has been an Achilles heal for years and does not seem to be any closer to be rectified.

As a consequence of the early goals we were always chasing the game. The thing is though because of how open both teams were I always felt there was a chance. I said to herself, it’s what you do in the last 10 and not the first 10 minutes that make the difference and I always felt there would be the chances. The early part of the second half was key and by getting a number of scores on the board kept the belief there. I always felt if we got within 3-4 scores of Monaghan then a goal chance would present itself as Monaghan would get nervous and we would get braver. It happened and we took full advantage though the brilliance and bravery of Rian and young Turbitt for the first goal were outstanding. The second goal was all about hard work and belief. There was a real hustle to win the sideline and then really quick thinking from the kick and coolness by young Kelly.

The thing is we just couldn’t finish the job and that is because of decision making on the field and on the sideline. Shot selection, poor passing decisions and bad tackling, along with Rian obviously being completely fecked and carrying injuries meant Monaghan got the chance to get the scores they needed. We also stepped off them and encouraged them to go for it when we really should have been stepping up on the in the last few minutes and defending in their defensive areas rather than ours. Take cards, slow the game, be ‘cute’. We just didn’t have that and that should have been driven home from the sideline. Also we needed fresh legs in as the likes of Soupy and Hall had run themselves to a standstill. I also think Grugan seemed subdued. Extra legs in the last 3-4 minutes breaks up the flow of the game and also freshens it up. This is easy to say in hindsight and from the safety of the couch but the thing is the management are there to see this and make these calls. The good managers see it and do it, it didn’t happen and that’s where we fail I feel.

Cannot doubt the commitment, drive, and effort. The players died with their boots on and yesterday will be mentally devastating. The thing is what from here? I will make this clear I do not believe we have the squad to win and AI as it presently stands. Too many players just not quite up to that elite level. Physically we are behind a lot of teams, we do not have big men, well defensively anyway. They are good players but not physically dominating and that tells. Therefore we need a system that we hone, perfect and stick to. It may not always be pretty and we may not always score what we scored yesterday but we certainly cannot concede what we did yesterday. We were actually far more defensive against Antrim than we were yesterday I felt. Yesterday was a game for a line across the 45 and score on the break, hitting the likes of Murnin, Rian etc particularly in that heat. We are repeatedly being caught out defensively and after 7 years that hasn’t changed. 7 years is a long time and yesterday was the closest we have gotten to an Ulster final and we are still not there. I know people will be saying that the management deserve another chance but this was their ‘another chance’. I think now is the natural time for a change. Geezers ‘contract’ is up. There is a summer of club football for players to clear their heads of yesterday and also to make the right call on the new management. I think he has taken them as far as he can, similar to the 2 Brian’s before, and a new management who know how to win as managers, either at club or county level, needs to come in.
 
A

Armaghball

Well-Known Member
Blindingly obvious that that there are a few lads in our defence that aren’t county standard. Added to that Ciaran O’Hanlon is a class forward, but don’t think he is a defender, combination of both of these plus a few brain farts and Monaghan’s excellent forwards meant we were fighting an uphill battle from early doors.

Clearly we are as good as Monaghan, but beat ourselves yesterday. Rian is one of the best players in Ireland at the minute and the 2 Clann Eireann young lads were superb when they came on so the future is bright.
And the first of the last 2 frees was a total dive.
 
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Peter grimes

Well-Known Member
Armagh_paul said:
The new GK does have a bearing on this game because they know Magill isn't first choice, he hasn't played a senior game and they are going to test him. The first test he had Monaghan scored a goal.
Click to expand...

Monaghan ran through space that presented itself and given our history they might have reckoned on that happening. It has nothing to do with testing a new keeper.
 
Big Jim

Big Jim

Well-Known Member
Peter grimes said:
some stuff we do just doesn’t make sense. We had a Pre-match drill which involved contact and the player without the ball actually wraps both arms around the player in possession. We practice fouls. Whilst this was happening the officials in black ( as opposed to those in white and ties) were standing to together. One actually brought at least 1 other officials attention to the drill. That can’t do us any favours.

Thought Monaghan had great hands. Passes and catches stuck.

Rian is a star. Turbitt has something about him.
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Peter I questioned this quite some time ago about the "hugging" thing and am reliably told that its derived from rugby. It's an exercise in breaking the tackle as opposed to "holding on". Have to agree it looks a bit strange, but then not everything they do is understood or negative (and no I'm not suggesting that's what you're saying :D).

On the rest. Enjoyable day - gut wrenching result - hot day out - proud of the lads regardless - Monaghan management and team made the call to play the game, Armagh were just passengers in that - we'll be back - what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger - don't lose faith no matter how much it hurts.

The rest is well covered.
 
PutTheHighBallInLow

PutTheHighBallInLow

Active Member
thecritic said:
It just seems programmed into the lads to retreat into a defensive strategy when we get our noses in front. Monaghan were just waiting on the killer blow and we retreated.
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Patrick-Armagh said:
It’s hard to know where to start with yesterday’s game, especially in the context of a young man losing his life and the importance a game of football in comparison.

The first half was so open and as a neutral it must have been a great watch. The first two goals were awful to give away and really cost us in the end. There’s no excuse for either of them - two men unable to pick up a ball under no pressure leading to a quick free which opened us up and then the goalkeeper hitting an awful kick out right to them. There’s no way as a manager you can legislate or plan for that. Their fourth goal was far to easy and just showed the problems we have in our defence - simple hand pass and forward run down the middle opens up our entire defence. We also hit some awful wides which also added up in the end.

Much of our second half performance then showed the other side of our game, why we as fans are so excited at what’s possible. It was amazing to see the come back and how well we played. Some of our play was breathtaking at times, especially from Rian O’Neill. To go two points up going into injury time was a fantastic turn around.

But then the same old problems of being unable to see a game out came back to bite us. I counted three chances we absolutely butchered to get scores which lead to their scores - there was a hand pass over the top that would have put McQuillan one on one with Beggan which didn’t have enough on it, Kelly then cut back and gave a bad hand pass which was intercepted and Campbell then tried to force a hand pass up the middle which was cut out. It was all so predictable and just sums this Armagh team up in so many ways. We should have seen this game out but again we didn’t.

As for the future, I’m not sure what’s best. McGeeney has done an excellent job to get us where we are now. Too often in inter county management managers are replaced after 3 years and there’s no consistency or continuity. We are back in division 1 and are a coming force again. Getting rid of McGeeney now, would mean back to square one with someone else and is there someone who could do a better job? I’m not against a new manager coming in - if McGeeney, the players and the county board think a fresh start is needed. There would have to be a very good manager available to continue on with the progress we are making. If he does stay, serious work has to be done on our defence as the all out attack nature of our game isn’t always the answer. Serious questions have to be asked about our kick out strategy. That was massive mistake on his part and can’t be overlooked.

In many ways I wish we had been beaten by 8 points yesterday and had never gone into the lead. It would be easier to take today. Hopefully another year in Division 1 will take this team on further but our defence is still a massive worry and until that gets sorted out, we will only get so far with our attacking play.
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Good post enjoyed it, and if that pass to Mc Quillan had found him we would be talking about the Ulster final today, fine margins.
We do need to Tidy up the silly mistakes we are making, and although not Mc Geeney's biggest fan, I think we would lose the momentum going into next year if he went, we have the best team now for a long while, and I think they will learn from yesterday
 
P

Peter grimes

Well-Known Member
Armagh_paul said:
Armagh work their way back into the game but McGeeney insists on pushing up on Monaghan goal kicks and it is leaving us exposed at the back. If we played conservative at the beginning we would still be in this. If we get the tactics right now we could get back into this but we arent!
Click to expand...
Did we really “push up”? We crowded midfield but didn’t really mark
 
T

Throwball

Well-Known Member
bcb1 said:
It’s hard to know how to summarise that game. Was unfortunately on the road for the first half and listened to it on the radio. Conleth Gilligan is a pleasure to listen to, very insightful, as I said to herself talks the game the way he played it, sees the patterns and the flow. We definitely didn’t deserve to be behind as far as we were but the goals were very poor. Naive to say the least. The lose of Blaine Hughes didn’t help but the keeper wasn’t at fault for Darren Hughes running untracked through for instance. Maybe the change of keeper so late in the day unsettled the defence as a whole which is completely understandable but some of the basic defending just simply wasn’t there and that has been an Achilles heal for years and does not seem to be any closer to be rectified.

As a consequence of the early goals we were always chasing the game. The thing is though because of how open both teams were I always felt there was a chance. I said to herself, it’s what you do in the last 10 and not the first 10 minutes that make the difference and I always felt there would be the chances. The early part of the second half was key and by getting a number of scores on the board kept the belief there. I always felt if we got within 3-4 scores of Monaghan then a goal chance would present itself as Monaghan would get nervous and we would get braver. It happened and we took full advantage though the brilliance and bravery of Rian and young Turbitt for the first goal were outstanding. The second goal was all about hard work and belief. There was a real hustle to win the sideline and then really quick thinking from the kick and coolness by young Kelly.

The thing is we just couldn’t finish the job and that is because of decision making on the field and on the sideline. Shot selection, poor passing decisions and bad tackling, along with Rian obviously being completely fecked and carrying injuries meant Monaghan got the chance to get the scores they needed. We also stepped off them and encouraged them to go for it when we really should have been stepping up on the in the last few minutes and defending in their defensive areas rather than ours. Take cards, slow the game, be ‘cute’. We just didn’t have that and that should have been driven home from the sideline. Also we needed fresh legs in as the likes of Soupy and Hall had run themselves to a standstill. I also think Grugan seemed subdued. Extra legs in the last 3-4 minutes breaks up the flow of the game and also freshens it up. This is easy to say in hindsight and from the safety of the couch but the thing is the management are there to see this and make these calls. The good managers see it and do it, it didn’t happen and that’s where we fail I feel.

Cannot doubt the commitment, drive, and effort. The players died with their boots on and yesterday will be mentally devastating. The thing is what from here? I will make this clear I do not believe we have the squad to win and AI as it presently stands. Too many players just not quite up to that elite level. Physically we are behind a lot of teams, we do not have big men, well defensively anyway. They are good players but not physically dominating and that tells. Therefore we need a system that we hone, perfect and stick to. It may not always be pretty and we may not always score what we scored yesterday but we certainly cannot concede what we did yesterday. We were actually far more defensive against Antrim than we were yesterday I felt. Yesterday was a game for a line across the 45 and score on the break, hitting the likes of Murnin, Rian etc particularly in that heat. We are repeatedly being caught out defensively and after 7 years that hasn’t changed. 7 years is a long time and yesterday was the closest we have gotten to an Ulster final and we are still not there. I know people will be saying that the management deserve another chance but this was their ‘another chance’. I think now is the natural time for a change. Geezers ‘contract’ is up. There is a summer of club football for players to clear their heads of yesterday and also to make the right call on the new management. I think he has taken them as far as he can, similar to the 2 Brian’s before, and a new management who know how to win as managers, either at club or county level, needs to come in.
Click to expand...

I agree with much of what you say but an undecided if a new manager is the right course of action or not.

The first few years of Geezer's management were a waste of time as senior players quit and others weren't good enough. After that we could all see a team developing. Maybe that was because better players were becoming available. Like you, however, I wonder if we are in a 2 Brian's scenario. My worry though is that if the change is made is the right man there to take us forward. Kildare got rid if McGeeney at a similar juncture and it didn't go to well.
 
N

Not too serious

Member
Throwball said:
I agree with much of what you say but an undecided if a new manager is the right course of action or not.

The first few years of Geezer's management were a waste of time as senior players quit and others weren't good enough. After that we could all see a team developing. Maybe that was because better players were becoming available. Like you, however, I wonder if we are in a 2 Brian's scenario. My worry though is that if the change is made is the right man there to take us forward. Kildare got rid if McGeeney at a similar juncture and it didn't go to well.
Click to expand...
The two Brian’s delivered Ulster titles remember.
 
P

Peter grimes

Well-Known Member
Big Jim said:
Peter I questioned this quite some time ago about the "hugging" thing and am reliably told that its derived from rugby. It's an exercise in breaking the tackle as opposed to "holding on". Have to agree it looks a bit strange, but then not everything they do is understood or negative (and no I'm not suggesting that's what you're saying :D).

On the rest. Enjoyable day - gut wrenching result - hot day out - proud of the lads regardless - Monaghan management and team made the call to play the game, Armagh were just passengers in that - we'll be back - what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger - don't lose faith no matter how much it hurts.

The rest is well covered.
Click to expand...
The tackle breaking explanation is interesting. It genuinely didn’t look like that but unfortunately it will be 7 months before I get another look
 
R

Rory Curran

New Member
If Mcgeeney receives his p45 it would need to be a replacement with a proven track record. Might be worth waiting until Rory Gallagher becomes available.
 
G

gael_force_orchard

Well-Known Member
I think yesterday gave us every emotion possible for an Armagh supporter in one game, despair, anger, hope, elation and then back to despair.

7 points down at half time having scored 14 points. It just doesnt make any sense. Goals win games and defence wins championships. No team is going to win any game if they have to score 30 points to do it. Yet for all we conceded, we had the better forward line and the better midfield and left a few more scores behind us. It just defies logic.

Defence and closing out games has been an achilles heal for years for Armagh and by the time we were tasked with closing the game yesterday the legs were gone. The sheer effort to get back into the game and get ahead took its toll, the legs were gone.

There is a damn good forward line there and a solid midfield, but its creeping on in age and some players maybe have 2 more seasons in them, 3 max. Grugan, Murnin etc are 30 years old, Campbell may be 30 as well. This team needs a defence, or in the absence of unearthing a few defenders, needs a proper system that they stick to to cover the defence. That is my problem with how yesterday played out. Against Tyrone, Donegal in the league and Antrim laat time out, we were defensive, kept shape, and stuck rigidly to what looked like a gameplan. Against Monaghan we opened up, then pushed up but left the wings and middle open for Beggan to kickout and then we fell back, 3 different styles of play. In 7 years we have constantly changed what way we have tried to play and as a result we dont have a definite system and have been wide open down the middle. Monaghan knew this and they ruthlessly exposed it, yes we turned the ball over stupidly for a free that led to the first goal, but it was ridiculous how easily they got it.

I think a new manager is going to be needed this time around. The same mistakes are being made and not one armagh supporter can honeslty say that they expect a team to play in a set style from one game to the next. Yesterday we tried 3 different styles before reverting to type and a lot of that come down to how poorly we were set up.

This isn't a bash mc geeney article btw, the man has bled a lot of players, and there is starting to be the makings of a good team. Though I think a more tactically astute manager could push it to full potential
 
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