Qualifiers 2018

Armagh52 · Jul 9, 2018

Ard Mhacha 13 said:
I have always read bcb1's posts on both the old forum & this one & you are 100% correct he is fully entitled to his opinion. I adhere to the fact he is very insightful & has very relevant views on all things football related but i do also feel from reading his posts there just seems to be something underlying which might not exist if it was a different manager. If I am completely wrong then I am obviously misinterpreting what is being written. I do know like all of us he wants the very best for Armagh football.

Maybe he has an issue with McGeeney or maybe he does not, I don’t know or do I care.
My point is that everything seems to be very black and white. Anytime any form of critical analysis or constructive criticism is put forward it is automatically called out as geezer bashing/negative and at times vice versa when something positive is said.

bcb1 · Jul 9, 2018

Lads I’ve known Kieran McGeeney personally for longer than some people on this forum have been alive. He sat on my fathers knee on New Years Eve 1991 in our living room drinking Harvey Wallbangers and singing till dawn. He and his family have been friends to our family for years. Many people don’t know this but before he moved to mullaghbawn he lived in Creggan and could just as easily have played for Us or the Bridge.

My issue is with the successive failures of Armagh management to utilise the real quality footballers in our county and essentially under achieve in my view. There have been many reasons why this has been the case. In fact I actually think this team overachieved in getting where they did given the position they were in after Fermanagh and all involved deserve credit for that. I have been consistent in my feelings and I believe there are people in key positions who have a lot of influence and are under performing. I don’t include geezer in that. I believe the overall coaching for all the teams is bloated with former players from 2002 and a lot of yes men. I think that there needs to be a root and branch overhaul to reinvigorate the schools football following in from the success of St Ronans.
I also believe that the lack of swim in the Ulster Championship for the last number of years is a very poor reflection on the quality of the players that are in the county. The end of each season is the time for reflection. I would urge the county management as a whole, from u17 upwards to review their year and mark themselves out of 10 honestly and then use the next 6 months to rectify what has gone wrong and build upon what has gone right.

PatMustard · Jul 9, 2018

Ok, nobody has asked it yet. So I am...

Would you welcome the opt-outers (Clarke, Campbell, Morgan etc) back in 2019 with open arms?

Reluctantly? Definitely not? 100% welcome back?

I know my answer. Just want to hear others.

(Btw, I'm not trying to start a shitstorm or a slanging match here. Just trying to get a feel for this issue).

BigBellew · Jul 9, 2018

Are we perhaps getting a little ahead of ourselves assuming that some of these players will be available for next year?

I don't think Morgan opted out as such. From memory he would have been back for the end of the league start of the championship before developing a knee problem ruling him out.

Whites · Jul 9, 2018

PatMustard said:
Ok, nobody has asked it yet. So I am...

Would you welcome the opt-outers (Clarke, Campbell, Morgan etc) back in 2019 with open arms?

Reluctantly? Definitely not? 100% welcome back?

I know my answer. Just want to hear others.

(Btw, I'm not trying to start a shitstorm or a slanging match here. Just trying to get a feel for this issue).

Would welcome them back but would need to earn their place again, subs bench for a while!

Big Jim · Jul 9, 2018

PatMustard said:
Ok, nobody has asked it yet. So I am...

Would you welcome the opt-outers (Clarke, Campbell, Morgan etc) back in 2019 with open arms?

Reluctantly? Definitely not? 100% welcome back?

I know my answer. Just want to hear others.

(Btw, I'm not trying to start a shitstorm or a slanging match here. Just trying to get a feel for this issue).

I mentioned it in a post hat I wouldn't want anyone walking straight into the starting team and a player that knocked their pan in this or last year would lose out. I'd still welcome any player that was available and prepared to take on the pressure and most likely just like

Whites said:
Would welcome them back but would need to earn their place again, subs bench for a while!

cast no shadow · Jul 10, 2018

Yes I would (except for one individual), obviously they need to demonstrate commitment and the will to be there! But most importantly they need to be patient and very mature because for me they would be at the wrong end of the Squad. It is totally acceptable for a lad to walk away for year and live there life! But they have to accept by doing so they will be down the pecking order.

I have to agree with geezer on the negative influence persuading lads not to play. I hate hearing this within my club. Absolutly hate it!! I think it’s a poor representing of a club if they permit this behaviour. Totally against the values of our organisation where representation of your family and community should be one of the highest accolades!

Ogs lad · Jul 10, 2018

Campbell averages 4pts a game. We can't afford to not have a player like that in our team. Likewise the others, cream will always rise so if these guys are the best in their position they'll find their way there come championship. That's what the league does.

PatMustard · Jul 10, 2018

Ogs lad said:
Campbell averages 4pts a game. We can't afford to not have a player like that in our team. Likewise the others, cream will always rise so if these guys are the best in their position they'll find their way there come championship. That's what the league does.

Good point.

Throwball · Jul 10, 2018

bcb1 said:
Lads I’ve known Kieran McGeeney personally for longer than some people on this forum have been alive. He sat on my fathers knee on New Years Eve 1991 in our living room drinking Harvey Wallbangers and singing till dawn. He and his family have been friends to our family for years. Many people don’t know this but before he moved to mullaghbawn he lived in Creggan and could just as easily have played for Us or the Bridge.

My issue is with the successive failures of Armagh management to utilise the real quality footballers in our county and essentially under achieve in my view. There have been many reasons why this has been the case. In fact I actually think this team overachieved in getting where they did given the position they were in after Fermanagh and all involved deserve credit for that. I have been consistent in my feelings and I believe there are people in key positions who have a lot of influence and are under performing. I don’t include geezer in that. I believe the overall coaching for all the teams is bloated with former players from 2002 and a lot of yes men. I think that there needs to be a root and branch overhaul to reinvigorate the schools football following in from the success of St Ronans.
I also believe that the lack of swim in the Ulster Championship for the last number of years is a very poor reflection on the quality of the players that are in the county. The end of each season is the time for reflection. I would urge the county management as a whole, from u17 upwards to review their year and mark themselves out of 10 honestly and then use the next 6 months to rectify what has gone wrong and build upon what has gone right.

Bit disappointed in this post as I was looking forward to the scrap between @Ard Mhacha 13 and @bcb1

On a serious note though as I have said before I think the problems in the county run deeper than the senior team. We need to improve our under age school and club coaching to give our young players the opportunity to be the best they can be. Setting aside the critical issue of child protection courses the county board set up a number of courses on refereeing up to under 12. Although a great idea I personally feel the one I went to was a wasted opportunity. A well structured course for coaches on the recommendations on how best to coach children at the various age groups would have been of more benefit in my opinion. I know some clubs have asked experienced coaches to help their coaches improve and pass a higher standard of coaching on to their young players. For me this should be a county wide programme led by the county board. If up to under 12 our players are not coached the basics correctly by the time they become senior habits are often to hard to break.

As a final note a couple of years ago I went to a training course on coaching how to kick. There was a couple of dozen in attendance. The thing I remember most about it was the tutor saying the course had been run in all 9 counties and that the best attendances were in Tyrone, Donegal and Monaghan- coincidence ? Maybe we all have a role to play in improving the standards in our club and county.

Big Jim · Jul 10, 2018

Throwball said:
Bit disappointed in this post as I was looking forward to the scrap between @Ard Mhacha 13 and @bcb1

On a serious note though as I have said before I think the problems in the county run deeper than the senior team. We need to improve our under age school and club coaching to give our young players the opportunity to be the best they can be. Setting aside the critical issue of child protection courses the county board set up a number of courses on refereeing up to under 12. Although a great idea I personally feel the one I went to was a wasted opportunity. A well structured course for coaches on the recommendations on how best to coach children at the various age groups would have been of more benefit in my opinion. I know some clubs have asked experienced coaches to help their coaches improve and pass a higher standard of coaching on to their young players. For me this should be a county wide programme led by the county board. If up to under 12 our players are not coached the basics correctly by the time they become senior habits are often to hard to break.

As a final note a couple of years ago I went to a training course on coaching how to kick. There was a couple of dozen in attendance. The thing I remember most about it was the tutor saying the course had been run in all 9 counties and that the best attendances were in Tyrone, Donegal and Monaghan- coincidence ? Maybe we all have a role to play in improving the standards in our club and county.

Again absolutely on the money. Coaching at a high level consistently is great. Indeed it's fantastic for coaches to forgo their own personal lives to enhance that of the youngsters in their area. BUT there is no point if coach A in club 1 is brilliant and instilling a particular set of tactics, roles or methods. Then coach B in club 2 who is also fantastic goes about it in a different way. Coach c in club 3 etc. etc. etc.

These people need highly commended, but consistently trained and allowed to train and train with the coaches from other clubs. This should not be done right now, but as soon as the club season ends when they may have a little more time and less running after teams to do. A consistent programme with input from every coach so a common method can be rolled out would be a start and can be tweaked as time goes on.

I'll also have to agree with the comment about attendance. I was invited to go to a couple of Ulster Council courses. Now the debate can reign as to whether these are any good - I think they are, but the numbers from Armagh were less than a quarter, maybe even significantly less, than the rest of the counties.

Applecore · Jul 10, 2018

Following the debate on here regarding this year and I find myself agreeing with a lot of what bcb has said.

Let's be honest, Armagh avoided a few giant killers in the draw which probably saved mcgeeneys bacon. It was very kind to us - Westmeath were awful, sligo were not much better and Clare were a better side for 65 mins before changing their keeper and their running game caught up with them over the last 5 minutes. In the last round we avoided kildare, mayo, tyrone, monaghan - all division one sides. Arguably we got the hardest of all provincial losers I will admit. Reaching the last 12 is in itself a success and promotion to division 2 but there is a story behind it - is losing to Fermanagh, then beating Westmeath, sligo and Clare in the championship really a success. We can only beat the team in front of us - but if we had drawn a big gun in first round - the year looks a lot different.

The game against Roscommon was a breath of fresh air. The team left their best performance of the year until last and put up a good show against a strong Roscommon outfit. Brilliant football and a great sense of pride in what the team and management did. There is a lot of optimism after the game of where Armagh are heading - rightly so, but arguably we have had 2 games over a whole season against decent opposition and we came out second best in both games - bar a freak scoring spell in the last 5mins against clare. Brilliant character to do it but we were second best in the game. If you look ahead to next year the standard of opposition in division 2 - we need our absentees back playing in order to stay up couple that with no leavers from this years squad.

The task of the management in the off season is to get these lads back. As some have said already, there is a resentment towards the county setup at the minute which is also clear from mcgeeneys comments in the irish news but from my experience, the county is its own worst enemy in that regard. The lack of availability of county players to their club during the season is a huge issue. A lot of games they are deemed unavailable, when they are available they are injured or wrecked from the county schedule. I would say there are very few county players have trained with their club this year. I am an Armagh supporter - I would see it as a great honour to be asked to represent your county - but having men from the club representing the county is no consolation to a club facing relegation because their county players have played 1 league game all year if any at all. To unite the county and have everyone pulling in the right direction, there needs to be give and take. This includes all county players, including first 15 players. Players are often squeezed between club and county management, feel a constant pressure that they have to let one side down when this shouldn't be the case.

Well done lads this year- looking forward to the club championships now.

Eireogatron · Jul 10, 2018

PatMustard said:
Ok, nobody has asked it yet. So I am...

Would you welcome the opt-outers (Clarke, Campbell, Morgan etc) back in 2019 with open arms?

Reluctantly? Definitely not? 100% welcome back?

I know my answer. Just want to hear others.

(Btw, I'm not trying to start a shitstorm or a slanging match here. Just trying to get a feel for this issue).

absolutely. You or I dont know why they opted out, or if indeed there were agreements in place to come back in 2019. In terms of "earning their way back in" I dont see that being an issue, of course the best team is going to take the field through earning it in the mckenna, training, challenge matches, etc etc.

Anyone who says that players should be balckballed is living in a fantasy land in my opinion. One side point is obviously "are they committed", I'm sure the selectors will be well able to make the call on that, thats why they are in the role. I am going to slighly contradict myself here, The likes of JC will have more question marks than others simply because of his history (and I dont begrudge him in the slightest, he has one life and has to live it) but we probably cant afford to build the team around him for 1 year then have to come up with a plan in 2020 if he flies the coup again...

A final aside, people are saying we got lucky with our run. Ok, but we had some crucial injuries at bad times, and we didnt get the easiest route by any means - Monaghan got 3 Division 4 sides to qualify. We just didnt get the hardest draw, until Roscommon (which was the hardest draw of the final round) and we were in the game against a well rested Div 1 side until the end when we ran out of legs.

niall1980 · Jul 10, 2018

Eireogatron said:
absolutely. You or I dont know why they opted out, or if indeed there were agreements in place to come back in 2019. In terms of "earning their way back in" I dont see that being an issue, of course the best team is going to take the field through earning it in the mckenna, training, challenge matches, etc etc.

Anyone who says that players should be balckballed is living in a fantasy land in my opinion. One side point is obviously "are they committed", I'm sure the selectors will be well able to make the call on that, thats why they are in the role. I am going to slighly contradict myself here, The likes of JC will have more question marks than others simply because of his history (and I dont begrudge him in the slightest, he has one life and has to live it) but we probably cant afford to build the team around him for 1 year then have to come up with a plan in 2020 if he flies the coup again...

A final aside, people are saying we got lucky with our run. Ok, but we had some crucial injuries at bad times, and we didnt get the easiest route by any means - Monaghan got 3 Division 4 sides before coming up against a demoralised and shot Fermanagh side who are imo still reeling from Quigley-gate. We just didnt get the hardest draw, until Roscommon and we were in the game against a well rested Div 1 side until the end when we ran out of legs.

I agree with all this, esp on JC. I think we should forget about him.
One point tho, Monaghan played Laois. Not fermanagh

Ard Mhacha 13 · Jul 10, 2018

Eireogatron said:
absolutely. You or I dont know why they opted out, or if indeed there were agreements in place to come back in 2019. In terms of "earning their way back in" I dont see that being an issue, of course the best team is going to take the field through earning it in the mckenna, training, challenge matches, etc etc.

Anyone who says that players should be balckballed is living in a fantasy land in my opinion. One side point is obviously "are they committed", I'm sure the selectors will be well able to make the call on that, thats why they are in the role. I am going to slighly contradict myself here, The likes of JC will have more question marks than others simply because of his history (and I dont begrudge him in the slightest, he has one life and has to live it) but we probably cant afford to build the team around him for 1 year then have to come up with a plan in 2020 if he flies the coup again...

A final aside, people are saying we got lucky with our run. Ok, but we had some crucial injuries at bad times, and we didnt get the easiest route by any means - Monaghan got 3 Division 4 sides before coming up against a demoralised and shot Fermanagh side who are imo still reeling from Quigley-gate. We just didnt get the hardest draw, until Roscommon and we were in the game against a well rested Div 1 side until the end when we ran out of legs.

I was wondering if anyone might mention this, the only tough match they've had to date was against Tyrone, yes they lost to Fermanagh in the Ulster semi final but that was more by fluke than anything else. I would have been delighted to have had their run into the Super 8s

I truly believe if we had got either Cork or Laois (yes even our bogey team in recent years) in the last round of qualifiers we would indeed be looking forward to 3 more matches.

Eireogatron · Jul 10, 2018

sorry, yes all division 4 sides including Laois

Tango · Jul 10, 2018

PatMustard said:
Ok, nobody has asked it yet. So I am...

Would you welcome the opt-outers (Clarke, Campbell, Morgan etc) back in 2019 with open arms?

Reluctantly? Definitely not? 100% welcome back?

I know my answer. Just want to hear others.

(Btw, I'm not trying to start a shitstorm or a slanging match here. Just trying to get a feel for this issue).

Absolutely welcome them back, if they’re not enjoying it there is no point being there. Sometimes a player mite need to take time out to do other things to live a little even, as we’re all aware it’s a big commitment to play county football, so i’ve No problem lads taking a year out to enjoy themselves and as I said live a little and hopefully they return with more of an appetite for the game.

Also we’re not in the position to turn quality players like that away. Hopefully everyone can roll in behind mcgeeney next year.

PutTheHighBallInLow · Jul 11, 2018

Tango said:
Shots fired by mcgeeney in today’s Irish news

“McGeeney’s parting summer shot was aimed at the negative voices that have been in “players’ ears” bemoaning the merits of playing inter-county football.

“At times you listen to a lot of shit outside – usually from people who haven’t a clue,” said ‘Geezer’. “They sit outside and they pontificate.

“I played against a lot of these fellas and they were f***ing useless back then and they’re still f***ing useless.

“Some of the stuff they come out with, trying to tell young fellas, just because they’re better than them. These young fellas that are coming through are really good lads, genuine, well-mannered and good commitment to it, but these fellas have to be in their ear telling them because they’re afraid that they’ll do something that they couldn’t do.

“I think they should be given a bit of a break and let them make their own decisions. They want to play at this level and, what’s more, they’re capable, very capable.”

I think kieran takes what is said about him and the team too personal, yes I am aware that there is a good bit of negativity from some sections within the county but you have to let that go over your head.
His choice of language was hardly appropriate for the senior county manager to be using in the press, children can read newspapers and see such comments on social media .
At a recent county board meeting all clubs were told to advice managers, mentors and supporters that there would be a hard line on abusive language towards referees, so you have to lead by example.

POINTMAN · Jul 11, 2018

PutTheHighBallInLow said:
I think kieran takes what is said about him and the team too personal, yes I am aware that there is a good bit of negativity from some sections within the county but you have to let that go over your head.
His choice of language was hardly appropriate for the senior county manager to be using in the press, children can read newspapers and see such comments on social media .
At a recent county board meeting all clubs were told to advice managers, mentors and supporters that there would be a hard line on abusive language towards referees, so you have to lead by example.

Just 'another's poor media performance by Geezer - let's himself down too often.

Rufus T Firefly · Jul 11, 2018

Applecore said:
Following the debate on here regarding this year and I find myself agreeing with a lot of what bcb has said.

Let's be honest, Armagh avoided a few giant killers in the draw which probably saved mcgeeneys bacon. It was very kind to us - Westmeath were awful, sligo were not much better and Clare were a better side for 65 mins before changing their keeper and their running game caught up with them over the last 5 minutes. In the last round we avoided kildare, mayo, tyrone, monaghan - all division one sides. Arguably we got the hardest of all provincial losers I will admit. Reaching the last 12 is in itself a success and promotion to division 2 but there is a story behind it - is losing to Fermanagh, then beating Westmeath, sligo and Clare in the championship really a success. We can only beat the team in front of us - but if we had drawn a big gun in first round - the year looks a lot different.

The game against Roscommon was a breath of fresh air. The team left their best performance of the year until last and put up a good show against a strong Roscommon outfit. Brilliant football and a great sense of pride in what the team and management did. There is a lot of optimism after the game of where Armagh are heading - rightly so, but arguably we have had 2 games over a whole season against decent opposition and we came out second best in both games - bar a freak scoring spell in the last 5mins against clare. Brilliant character to do it but we were second best in the game. If you look ahead to next year the standard of opposition in division 2 - we need our absentees back playing in order to stay up couple that with no leavers from this years squad.

The task of the management in the off season is to get these lads back. As some have said already, there is a resentment towards the county setup at the minute which is also clear from mcgeeneys comments in the irish news but from my experience, the county is its own worst enemy in that regard. The lack of availability of county players to their club during the season is a huge issue. A lot of games they are deemed unavailable, when they are available they are injured or wrecked from the county schedule. I would say there are very few county players have trained with their club this year. I am an Armagh supporter - I would see it as a great honour to be asked to represent your county - but having men from the club representing the county is no consolation to a club facing relegation because their county players have played 1 league game all year if any at all. To unite the county and have everyone pulling in the right direction, there needs to be give and take. This includes all county players, including first 15 players. Players are often squeezed between club and county management, feel a constant pressure that they have to let one side down when this shouldn't be the case.

Well done lads this year- looking forward to the club championships now.

A lot of 'ifs', 'ands' and 'buts' in your post. Let me add another. If we had taken half of our chances against Clare, we would have been out of sight by the time a late comeback was required, and I'm quite sure the narrative of that game would have had a totally different complexion.

What I will agree with you is that there needs to be a better balance as regards the availability of the players for their clubs and the demands placed on them. Although you have not actually come out and said it, the casual reader might be left with the impression that your take on it is that the absentees are very much linked to the issue of the demands made on the players. That is far from certain and indeed there is unlikely to be one underlying reason for the absences.

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