Qualifiers 2018

[thecritic]

One hope though and something which has been nagging at me since all the talk of the "hope of players returning" or new lads coming in. It would destroy what we have achieved if the lads that gave all this year (and indeed the last couple of years) were set aside to accommodate the new talent. They MUST earn that place. They MUST be introduced as a "vital" sub and prove they are against worthy. Not just an automatic shoe in. No better way to alienate the lads that drove our revival this year.

An example is Jamar Hall. Several will remember the posts I made on the old official Forum, calling for him to be given a chance. He finally got it and grasped it with both hands and feet. He will develop further as part of this set-up and should not be sacrificed in the same way that the likes of Oisín Mac Íomhair has been. Another that has been around but never given proper respect. Reminds me a lot of Nippy Swift. Super talented lad that was always sacrificed until he had had enough and left.

Ok so only 15 can start and 6 more can play and I'm totally with the best 15-21 being used, but if your gonna introduce someone they at least deserve time to show what they can do.

In fairness Oisin Mac has had loads of chances. His failure to convert simple scoring chances is why he was sacrificed. A good example was during a league match this year - he was straight through with 15 mins to go and fisted it over the bar. Taking your chance would be burying the ball to the net. A good player, just hasn't stepped up, but has had plenty of chances!!

 

[Throwball]

For the most part an enjoyable and satisfactory year. Some players really stood up and that is great to see. Next year really is the determining year though. We need Vernon and Donaghy to stay on and others to return. The annual review will need to determine why some players are not committing and if there is anything reasonable that can be done to change that. Next year we will need to be pushing to the top end of the division 2 table and challenging in Ulster.

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

Agree with at @Calm1 that there has to be a balance of opinions here to make this discussion worthwhile. Indeed, I don't mind saying that I had a lot of doubts myself after the Enniskillen debacle, so while the year ended on a positive, it should not be lost that we have a long road to travel. A lot of what you say @bcb1 is worthy of consideration and discussion.

For what it's worth, I think you are right that we beat better teams last year than we did this year. What I would say is that management was dealing with the best possible hand at their disposal when we went on that run last year. I have already talked about the thin lines there are between success and failure, and that applied last year in that league decider against Tipp and in that qualifier in Mullingar.

I think this year there can be no question that management were operating - for a range of reasons - with a very much restricted hand. Players opting out and a range of injuries were key, and personally speaking I thought the absentees would have made a significant difference to possibly winning on Saturday instead of losing. A lot of the hope therefore is bred from the belief that we can build on this 'feel good factor' and encourage a number of other players to come back.

Whatever needs to be done to get the best team on the field must be done and that is his responsibility as manager.

Agreed, but that responsibility is not solely Geezer's. There is a responsibility on all of us to put aside petty jealousies and personal issues and encourage all Armagh players to play for our jersey. The comments attributed to Geezer above are very telling, as I was told by a former Armagh player (with multiple Ulster Championships and an All Ireland medal) of one player on the squad this year who was actively encouraged not to participate in the county from within his own Club.

I think first and foremost every single person here is a Club man or woman first - the County comes next. However that should not mean that supporting both are mutually exclusive. There will be an expectation on Geezer to move things forward, but that expectation has to be based on him having the support from within. Where that is lacking, then damage will be caused to Armagh's ambitions and of course Geezer's tenure will be undermined.

It will all therefore come down to priorities. Is the priority what is best for Armagh, or is the priority getting rid of Geezer. I find it hard to see a scenario in 2019, where those two priorities are not mutually exclusive.

 

[portadownarmaghfan]

What started off as a good year by gaining promotion, followed by a dismal performance in the first round of the championship has now ended up in what seems to be a ‘successful’ championship with a good run in the qualifiers. This seems to be nearly the Geezer template as that’s very reminiscent of what happened with kildare. A steady improvement and some players stepping up at different times. The question I would ask, and just indulge my devils advocay, is this an improvement on last year? The teams that were beaten last year were a much higher calibre than this year. Kildare and Tipp last are much better than Clare or Westmeath this year. I don’t want to be seen to piss on people’s chips but for 65 minutes of the game versus Clare we were second best and should have been beaten. We weren’t and that’s all that counts and a lot of credit goes to the players for that. The thing is I recall the same conversations I had around this time last year with people as I had today and will have again next year. For all the ‘success’ and investment of money and time we are out of the championship before the 12th July and the only Orange men marching from here will have sashes and bowler hats. McGeeney has earned next years tenure but I am sorry for being a curmudgeon but next year there has to be a bit more deliverance. A realistic target is an Ulster final....or even an Ulster championship match being won!!! Whatever needs to be done to get the best team on the field must be done and that is his responsibility as manager. I’ll laid them for making something out of the season that looked lost after Fermanagh but i won’t get caught up in the upward waves of a few qualifier wins against weak opponents and 1 7 minute burst against Clare.

That seems fair enough, not too much to be argued with in that post in my opinion.
I would possibly just add one more paragraph though. Notwithstanding travel plans, family commitments etc, I presume you would be calling on every available player to row in behind the management set up ( be it led by Mc Geeney or otherwise) next year? This would undoubtedly help to make us the strongest unit possible and move towards the greater deliverance that we all seek.

 

[Big Jim]

In fairness Oisin Mac has had loads of chances. His failure to convert simple scoring chances is why he was sacrificed. A good example was during a league match this year - he was straight through with 15 mins to go and fisted it over the bar. Taking your chance would be burying the ball to the net. A good player, just hasn't stepped up, but has had plenty of chances!!

Yeah and I guess it's in essence what I'm getting at. The lad has tried and tried and just doesn't seem to make it in the heat of battle even though he obviously proves he can in training or challenge games. The kindest thing is to cut him loose (and others like him in the same position) and let them be the best their club needs and then enjoy the last few years as a player. At least then they can say they were a former county player that got to finish their careers on their own terms giving back to the community that gave rise to them in the first place. Cruel, to be kind and all that!

 

[Nab14]

Absolutely gutted with the result on Saturday, despite that couldn’t be prouder of players and thank them and management for what’s been a good year.

To score 22 points against a top 8 team shows the talent we possess, done so even without Ethan Rafferty who was shooting the lights out during the league. However conceding 28 points is disappointing but at the same time missing Aaron McKay and Paul Hughes, both of which are quick and athletic, was massive.

As some have said it’ll be great to get back players next year (o’neills, Morgan, soupy) BUT they have to earn their place, is anyone prepared to tell paddy burns and Ryan McShane after the year they’ve had they now have to make way?

I understand concerns about being a false hope like after 2014 but out of the 20 players used vs Donegal, only 8 were in the squad this year. Geezers largely built this team from the bottom up with majority under 25.

As much as I back the current management, think next year is make or break. Realistic targets are top 3/4 in league and super 8s. Hopefully everyone can get behind the team next year!

 

[niall1980]

I’d agree with a lot of what @bcb says but I also thinks it’s not solely on McGeeney to ensure the best talent is there. What could he have done to persuade Clarke to play this year for example. I’d like to see he best players on the field but I think both sides have to work together to get that happening.

I lost faith in McGeeney this year. It has been restored but is not unshakeable anymore. We absolutely have to win in Ulster next year. Another failure cannot happen

 

[JoeH]

@bcb1 don't apologise for an opinion - "but I am sorry for being a curmudgeon but next year there has to be a bit more deliverance." I'd be in the "tinted glasses" classroom, I'm sure you know, but fully agree with your sentiment. You haven't said anything I wouldn't say. Optimistic about the future, yes, but nervous about the deliverance too.

My faith in what Kieran can achieve has been broken and as I said in an earlier post I feel we are back where we were a few years ago against Donegal and in truth that just isn't good enough. We should have moved on significantly from that. We need theses new lads incorporated and performing regularly especially as our clubs are losing out because of it.

All that said I am still really looking forward to getting going again in January! Ate we there yet??

EDIT!! No this is definitely not an improvement on last year. It may well equal it on feel good without the devastation Tyrone delivered!!

We must remember the changes in personnel from 2014/15 to now
Armagh team v Donegal 2014

Armagh: P McEvoy, F Moriarty, C Vernon, A Mallon (0-1), M Shields, B Donaghy, A Kernan (0-2, 1f), S Harold, A Findon, A Forker (0-1), K Dyas, T Kernan (0-4, 1f), K Carragher (0-1), S Campbell (1-1), J Clarke.

4 players from that team started last Saturday.
We went from div 2 to div 3 based on three-way tie rule.
Perspective needed sometimes

 

[Big Jim]

We must remember the changes in personnel from 2014/15 to now
Armagh team v Donegal 2014

Armagh: P McEvoy, F Moriarty, C Vernon, A Mallon (0-1), M Shields, B Donaghy, A Kernan (0-2, 1f), S Harold, A Findon, A Forker (0-1), K Dyas, T Kernan (0-4, 1f), K Carragher (0-1), S Campbell (1-1), J Clarke.

4 players from that team started last Saturday.
We went from div 2 to div 3 based on three-way tie rule.
Perspective needed sometimes

Absolutely and if you know anything about me I will support whoever is playing managed by whoever is in charge. I've no........ in fact zero problem saying I'm behind what is happening at each level of our team (and that includes our minors and U20s and the same with our Hurlers whom I've come to greatly admire over the last number of years).

You will never see me with a genuinely negative post and was all too regularly accused of having tinted glasses and could see no wrong including with the county board which was hilarious. I even played up to it with various avatars.

I'd repeat the line though, "Optimistic about the future, yes, but nervous about the deliverance too."

I had joined the Facebook campaign to get Geezer the job and stick by showing my support. Not for a millionth of a second do I question his passion or ability. Not for a millionth of a second do I question the team passion or ability. That's where my perspective kicks in. I think we're doing really well with what we have. Better in fact than maybe we should be at the minute.

 

[MJM]

Agree with at @Calm1 that there has to be a balance of opinions here to make this discussion worthwhile. Indeed, I don't mind saying that I had a lot of doubts myself after the Enniskillen debacle, so while the year ended on a positive, it should not be lost that we have a long road to travel. A lot of what you say @bcb1 is worthy of consideration and discussion.

For what it's worth, I think you are right that we beat better teams last year than we did this year. What I would say is that management was dealing with the best possible hand at their disposal when we went on that run last year. I have already talked about the thin lines there are between success and failure, and that applied last year in that league decider against Tipp and in that qualifier in Mullingar.

I think this year there can be no question that management were operating - for a range of reasons - with a very much restricted hand. Players opting out and a range of injuries were key, and personally speaking I thought the absentees would have made a significant difference to possibly winning on Saturday instead of losing. A lot of the hope therefore is bred from the belief that we can build on this 'feel good factor' and encourage a number of other players to come back.



Agreed, but that responsibility is not solely Geezer's. There is a responsibility on all of us to put aside petty jealousies and personal issues and encourage all Armagh players to play for our jersey. The comments attributed to Geezer above are very telling, as I was told by a former Armagh player (with multiple Ulster Championships and an All Ireland medal) of one player on the squad this year who was actively encouraged not to participate in the county from within his own Club.

I think first and foremost every single person here is a Club man or woman first - the County comes next. However that should not mean that supporting both are mutually exclusive. There will be an expectation on Geezer to move things forward, but that expectation has to be based on him having the support from within. Where that is lacking, then damage will be caused to Armagh's ambitions and of course Geezer's tenure will be undermined.

It will all therefore come down to priorities. Is the priority what is best for Armagh, or is the priority getting rid of Geezer. I find it hard to see a scenario in 2019, where those two priorities are not mutually exclusive.

Agree totallywith this post. We're a small county. To be successful all stakeholders must role in together - clubs,county board and players.

That clearly hasnt happened and i dont think anyone would disbelieve the story Rufus posted of players being discouraged to represent their county.

McGeeney got the best out of what he had at his disposal. Too easy to say its solely his responsibility to move things on if people in the background are working against him

 

[Ard Mhacha 13]

What started off as a good year by gaining promotion, followed by a dismal performance in the first round of the championship has now ended up in what seems to be a ‘successful’ championship with a good run in the qualifiers. This seems to be nearly the Geezer template as that’s very reminiscent of what happened with kildare. A steady improvement and some players stepping up at different times. The question I would ask, and just indulge my devils advocay, is this an improvement on last year? The teams that were beaten last year were a much higher calibre than this year. Kildare and Tipp last are much better than Clare or Westmeath this year. I don’t want to be seen to piss on people’s chips but for 65 minutes of the game versus Clare we were second best and should have been beaten. We weren’t and that’s all that counts and a lot of credit goes to the players for that. The thing is I recall the same conversations I had around this time last year with people as I had today and will have again next year. For all the ‘success’ and investment of money and time we are out of the championship before the 12th July and the only Orange men marching from here will have sashes and bowler hats. McGeeney has earned next years tenure but I am sorry for being a curmudgeon but next year there has to be a bit more deliverance. A realistic target is an Ulster final....or even an Ulster championship match being won!!! Whatever needs to be done to get the best team on the field must be done and that is his responsibility as manager. I’ll laid them for making something out of the season that looked lost after Fermanagh but i won’t get caught up in the upward waves of a few qualifier wins against weak opponents and 1 7 minute burst against Clare.

Was just waiting for your "positive" post. I can't decide whether you have a personal grudge against Geezer but it certainly seems to come across that way with many of your posts. I know you have an indepth knowledge of football, club & county & ultimately you want what is best for our county but just once I would love to read a post by you which simply says "you know what fair play to the boys who togged out today, they gave their all & you can't ask for any more than that".

Realistically there have been supporters who have had a gripe with every single manager we've had since Big Joe, & even a few dissenting voices regarding his management towards the end!! Also remember Paddy O'Rourke led us to a Division 2 title & Peter McDonnell to an Ulster title, they still had their critics & during each managers reign there has been a "worst match I've ever seen Armagh play" moment. Some people will just never be happy with who is in charge. Maybe you truly believe there is someone out there who would do a better job with the current squad or maybe you lay the full blame for the players we have missing entirely at Geezer's door, but one thing is for sure the players who have been willing to make the commitment & play for Geezer gave absolutely everything this year so maybe just maybe we can be allowed to see this year as a success. We gained promotion to Division 2 with, as you say a "weaker" squad than last Season when we missed out on promotion by the kick of a ball, won the Division 3 title & also gave Roscommon, a team promoted to Division 1 this year a proper competitive game, again as you say, with a "weaker" squad than last year. Yes there are still things that can be improved upon but hey we made it to the last 12 after a truly dismal outing in Enniskillen which shows we were never as bad as that game alluded to & with a little bit of luck we might have made the Super 8s. Just be thankful you're not a Cork supporter, now there is a team with real problems!

 

[Ard Mhacha 13]

Absolutely gutted with the result on Saturday, despite that couldn’t be prouder of players and thank them and management for what’s been a good year.

To score 22 points against a top 8 team shows the talent we possess, done so even without Ethan Rafferty who was shooting the lights out during the league. However conceding 28 points is disappointing but at the same time missing Aaron McKay and Paul Hughes, both of which are quick and athletic, was massive.

As some have said it’ll be great to get back players next year (o’neills, Morgan, soupy) BUT they have to earn their place, is anyone prepared to tell paddy burns and Ryan McShane after the year they’ve had they now have to make way?

I understand concerns about being a false hope like after 2014 but out of the 20 players used vs Donegal, only 8 were in the squad this year. Geezers largely built this team from the bottom up with majority under 25.

As much as I back the current management, think next year is make or break. Realistic targets are top 3/4 in league and super 8s. Hopefully everyone can get behind the team next year!

I'd like to think everyone gets behind the team every year irrespective of management or personnel. To me if you are an Armagh supporter you support those who are there putting in the hours & giving the commitment to our county.

 

[Armagh52]

Was just waiting for your "positive" post. I can't decide whether you have a personal grudge against Geezer but it certainly seems to come across that way with many of your posts. I know you have an indepth knowledge of football, club & county & ultimately you want what is best for our county but just once I would love to read a post by you which simply says "you know what fair play to the boys who togged out today, they gave their all & you can't ask for any more than that".

Realistically there have been supporters who have had a gripe with every single manager we've had since Big Joe, & even a few dissenting voices regarding his management towards the end!! Also remember Paddy O'Rourke led us to a Division 2 title & Peter McDonnell to an Ulster title, they still had their critics & during each managers reign there has been a "worst match I've ever seen Armagh play" moment. Some people will just never be happy with who is in charge. Maybe you truly believe there is someone out there who would do a better job with the current squad or maybe you lay the full blame for the players we have missing entirely at Geezer's door, but one thing is for sure the players who have been willing to make the commitment & play for Geezer gave absolutely everything this year so maybe just maybe we can be allowed to see this year as a success. We gained promotion to Division 2 with, as you say a "weaker" squad than last Season when we missed out on promotion by the kick of a ball, won the Division 3 title & also gave Roscommon, a team promoted to Division 1 this year a proper competitive game, again as you say, with a "weaker" squad than last year. Yes there are still things that can be improved upon but hey we made it to the last 12 after a truly dismal outing in Enniskillen which shows we were never as bad as that game alluded to & with a little bit of luck we might have made the Super 8s. Just be thankful you're not a Cork supporter, now there is a team with real problems!

In fairness, bcb is entitled to his opinion as much as you are entitled to yours but to brush his post off as him having a grudge with McGeeney, I feel, is a bit unfair. If you read back through his posts he has suggested on various occasions different initiatives/ideas that could improve our fortunes.

In your mind this might be negative. Others might see it as critical thinking which can only be a good thing if we are to strive to improve.

 

[Ard Mhacha 13]

In fairness, bcb is entitled to his opinion as much as you are entitled to yours but to brush his post off as him having a grudge with McGeeney, I feel, is a bit unfair. If you read back through his posts he has suggested on various occasions different initiatives/ideas that could improve our fortunes.

In your mind this might be negative. Others might see it as critical thinking which can only be a good thing if we are to strive to improve.

I have always read bcb1's posts on both the old forum & this one & you are 100% correct he is fully entitled to his opinion. I adhere to the fact he is very insightful & has very relevant views on all things football related but i do also feel from reading his posts there just seems to be something underlying which might not exist if it was a different manager. If I am completely wrong then I am obviously misinterpreting what is being written. I do know like all of us he wants the very best for Armagh football.

 

[niall1980]

In fairness, bcb is entitled to his opinion as much as you are entitled to yours but to brush his post off as him having a grudge with McGeeney, I feel, is a bit unfair. If you read back through his posts he has suggested on various occasions different initiatives/ideas that could improve our fortunes.

In your mind this might be negative. Others might see it as critical thinking which can only be a good thing if we are to strive to improve.

Agreed. Unlike many others, myself included at times, BCB offers possible solutions to problems he see instead of just highlighting problems. It’s a good thing. FWIW I don’t think he has a grudge against McGeeney. Could be wrong tho

 

[Rufus T Firefly]

One of the constant criticisims levelled against Armagh forums in the past has been that they simply tow what others perceive to be 'the party line' and that opposing views are not tolerated. I know one or two darts come my way in that regard. To ensure the integrity of the forum there must be room for meaningful discussion which means that alternative points of view have to be allowed to be heard and debated. There has been great support for Geezer as many have taken the positives from how the season ended, whereas others are more circumspect, whilst others again simply want Geezer gone. As long as the post is not abusive and is well argued, then I would hope there would be room for it here.

@bcb1's post has to be seen in that context. His support is more qualified and he has presented a reasoned argument for his stance. That definitely gives room for debate and has to be welcomed.

 

[Admin1]

@Rufus T Firefly and indeed all others, please be assured that honest open debate will not be stifled. At no time will opinions be discouraged. As long as it doesn't turn abusive or deeply personal, the type you wouldn't want levelled at your brother etc. then we [the admin and moderation team] will take no part in suppression of the conversation. That in our view was childish and controlling on the old forum.

Our tagline is "Armagh To The Core!" and that's what we mean. A debate should get to the core of the issue.

We will where we feel offer our own opinion, but prefer to remain out of the day to day stuff. So far we're happy with how it has been working.

 

[Ard Mhacha 13]

Can I just quantify my post by stating this is not about 1 individual post, as I said I have read all of bcb1's posts on this forum & the last. I am not saying he does not offer valued opinions or resolutions to issues the county set up may have, I fully agree he has wonderful insight & knowledge about all things football related & offers relevant critical analysis however what I am saying is that from my own personal point of view I have read various posts & felt there is an underlying issue with Geezer, maybe it is purely his management skills & as I already said I may be totally misinterpreting what has previously been written, if I am wrong I'm wrong but it has been the impression I have had for quite a while.

Also I don't think my post was in any way abusive!!!

 

[Big Jim]

Here I know the guy doesn't care to see Armagh win and normally enjoys the "I knew they'd lose" banter, but has 'bull been suspended already? I never noticed anything out of the ordinary and he's been quiet for a few days!

 

[Admin1]

Here I know the guy doesn't care to see Armagh win and normally enjoys the "I knew they'd lose" banter, but has 'bull been suspended already? I never noticed anything out of the ordinary and he's been quiet for a few days!

No one has been banned except for a few rogue accounts that were spamming.