ragingbull
Well-Known Member
What's the hoganstand forum
ULSTER FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP 2K22
- Thread starter PutTheHighBallInLow
- Start date
So deflated after today. Real shades of 2015, when Donegal took the wind out of another Armagh side that seemed to be going places. That particular side never really recovered, and I’d worry about the long term damage that today does to the current group. The beginnings of a recovery could be made through the qualifiers, but it’s difficult to see it tonight.
Kick-outs were clearly crucial. We didn’t compete in either direction. Actually think it’s pointless getting too into individual performances - there was a complete systems failure on kick-outs that put unbearable pressure on all other areas of the pitch. You just can’t win football games with no ball and no momentum.
Plenty of chat about the management here, and they absolutely have to own their share of the blame for that today. So much wasn’t up to scratch - even the basics like getting spare balls down behind Rafferty’s goal so that he might have the option of taking quicker kick-outs. Patton never had fewer than four balls behind his goal, yet Rafferty was left waiting for the crowd to return the ball on more than one occasion. These are the finer details that separate serious teams from also-rans.
But it also has to be remembered that McGeeney is surviving on scrapes when it comes to playing resources. For over a decade we’ve been putrid at underage level. Despite this we’re currently knocking about the top division, and have not entirely unreasonable expectations of being competitive with the best in the country. There are obvious match day failings, but I don’t know if anyone else squeezes any more out of the lads we have.
Random other points:
- No idea why Donegal were awarded a free out when the ball ended up in their net at the beginning of the second half.
- Didn’t matter at all in the end, but one of Donegal’s second half points was quite clearly wide.
- Michael Murphy is still a force of nature, but is also a completely insufferable yap.
Kick-outs were clearly crucial. We didn’t compete in either direction. Actually think it’s pointless getting too into individual performances - there was a complete systems failure on kick-outs that put unbearable pressure on all other areas of the pitch. You just can’t win football games with no ball and no momentum.
Plenty of chat about the management here, and they absolutely have to own their share of the blame for that today. So much wasn’t up to scratch - even the basics like getting spare balls down behind Rafferty’s goal so that he might have the option of taking quicker kick-outs. Patton never had fewer than four balls behind his goal, yet Rafferty was left waiting for the crowd to return the ball on more than one occasion. These are the finer details that separate serious teams from also-rans.
But it also has to be remembered that McGeeney is surviving on scrapes when it comes to playing resources. For over a decade we’ve been putrid at underage level. Despite this we’re currently knocking about the top division, and have not entirely unreasonable expectations of being competitive with the best in the country. There are obvious match day failings, but I don’t know if anyone else squeezes any more out of the lads we have.
Random other points:
- No idea why Donegal were awarded a free out when the ball ended up in their net at the beginning of the second half.
- Didn’t matter at all in the end, but one of Donegal’s second half points was quite clearly wide.
- Michael Murphy is still a force of nature, but is also a completely insufferable yap.
ragingbull
Well-Known Member
Was Rowland injured or dropped
ragingbull
Well-Known Member
I'd love to know what Donaghy has brought to the Armagh team cause I haven't seen anything since he's been in the management set up
I certainly hope not. We will go down there and get beat by two points and it will be a wonderful result. Taking the previous years perennial all Ireland final losers as close as two points will show the savage progress we have made in the last 10 years.
Patrick-Armagh
Well-Known Member
I wasn't overly confident going into this game and deep down didn't think we'd win, but was hoping that we'd show that we could compete with the likes of Donegal. I can't say that if we had performed a whole lot better and still lost by one or two, that I wouldn't be on here saying that Armagh just can't win close matches or see out games they are in control of. It's always hard to be philosophical in defeat, but when you expect so much more from your team and when you've seen how they can perform, then it makes it all the harder to take when you see a performance like that. If we had been two or three years into the project, it would be understandable. But we're into year eight now and when it comes to the big matches in Ulster we are still along way off it. It's obvious to say but it comes down to management and players ability.
McGeeney has built an extremely competitive squad of players who are now a solid Division 1 team. In league football we can mix it with most, giving the fans the impression and hope that come Championship we can replicate that form. We rarely have, especially in the big games. Going away to Ballybofey was always going to be a massive task. Better teams than us have gone there and lost to this team. But the sheer lack of quality and ability that was on show today, when it really matter was astonishing. I think that we have players good enough for league football, but not necessarily Championship football.
As everyone has pointed out, kick outs were a massive issue and really set the tone for the whole game. If Blaine Hughes had been in goal, he would have been rightly criticised, so the same standard should be held to Rafferty. Yes, there was a lack of movement, yes he just bombed the ball away to the sideline and hope for the best and yes there were times when he could have gone short and didn't. He and the management have to accept the responsibility and criticism for that. Also Donegal did a brilliant job of zonal marking for it, having big ball winners stationed in key areas so no matter where the kick went they had someone to win it. Our high fielders like Crealy, Grimley and Mackin were total destroyed.
I thought our full back line did pretty well in all honesty. Morgan, McKay and Forker were marking some seriously good players and conceding something like 1-8 to them wasn't the losing of the game. The slow, ponderous build up, the ease that Donegal players could slip in behind us when running from deep and of course the kick outs, were the bigger issues. The fast start that we had to the second half needed to see us get a good return on the scoreboard and we didn't do it. Yes, Rian O'Neill had a good goal ruled out, but who knows what would have happened after that. From then on, Donegal took their chances and were in total control. Grugan had a good game, Campbell added a bit of directness when he came on, but other than that a lot of our key players were really off the pace. Yes we have the qualifiers now and let's hope for a decent draw, but even if we get a run in that, it still shouldn't deflect from the fact that yet again we have failed on the big day.
McGeeney has built an extremely competitive squad of players who are now a solid Division 1 team. In league football we can mix it with most, giving the fans the impression and hope that come Championship we can replicate that form. We rarely have, especially in the big games. Going away to Ballybofey was always going to be a massive task. Better teams than us have gone there and lost to this team. But the sheer lack of quality and ability that was on show today, when it really matter was astonishing. I think that we have players good enough for league football, but not necessarily Championship football.
As everyone has pointed out, kick outs were a massive issue and really set the tone for the whole game. If Blaine Hughes had been in goal, he would have been rightly criticised, so the same standard should be held to Rafferty. Yes, there was a lack of movement, yes he just bombed the ball away to the sideline and hope for the best and yes there were times when he could have gone short and didn't. He and the management have to accept the responsibility and criticism for that. Also Donegal did a brilliant job of zonal marking for it, having big ball winners stationed in key areas so no matter where the kick went they had someone to win it. Our high fielders like Crealy, Grimley and Mackin were total destroyed.
I thought our full back line did pretty well in all honesty. Morgan, McKay and Forker were marking some seriously good players and conceding something like 1-8 to them wasn't the losing of the game. The slow, ponderous build up, the ease that Donegal players could slip in behind us when running from deep and of course the kick outs, were the bigger issues. The fast start that we had to the second half needed to see us get a good return on the scoreboard and we didn't do it. Yes, Rian O'Neill had a good goal ruled out, but who knows what would have happened after that. From then on, Donegal took their chances and were in total control. Grugan had a good game, Campbell added a bit of directness when he came on, but other than that a lot of our key players were really off the pace. Yes we have the qualifiers now and let's hope for a decent draw, but even if we get a run in that, it still shouldn't deflect from the fact that yet again we have failed on the big day.
PutTheHighBallInLow
Active Member
Seen Murphy shoulder Oisin O'Neill in the chest at the end
PutTheHighBallInLow
Active Member
It's kind of like the late late show competition, strictly for freestaters
Jungle_King
Member
Woke up with a hangover this morning . Despite not touching 1 drink over the weekend
KilleavyGael
Active Member
Held off on posting last night due to exhaustion from the drive plus a couple of pints. Reading this morning I can see that most of it has already been said.
Beaten by the better team, but I would definitely fancy our chances more at a less claustrophobic venue like Croke Park. We can criticise management all we want but at the end of the day, Donegal just had bigger men to put the squeeze on us and deny primary possession. There's a reason they lose so few games over there, it's a tight environment and they can impose themselves.
Important to say that Ciaran Mackin wouldn't have saved us yesterday, he's brilliant but he's not 6'4". Crealy is but was bullied all day and Grimley clearly needs some help rediscovering the form that got him an All Star nomination and an Ireland call up. Our middle third is concerning. I still don't understand why Ethan is in goals if his remit is to lump it long and wander out to give and take a couple of hand passes on our 45 line.
Not all doom and gloom though, put us in Croke Park and the extra space will remove the kind of advantage Donegal had yesterday. We have nobody to fear with a bit of momentum.
Beaten by the better team, but I would definitely fancy our chances more at a less claustrophobic venue like Croke Park. We can criticise management all we want but at the end of the day, Donegal just had bigger men to put the squeeze on us and deny primary possession. There's a reason they lose so few games over there, it's a tight environment and they can impose themselves.
Important to say that Ciaran Mackin wouldn't have saved us yesterday, he's brilliant but he's not 6'4". Crealy is but was bullied all day and Grimley clearly needs some help rediscovering the form that got him an All Star nomination and an Ireland call up. Our middle third is concerning. I still don't understand why Ethan is in goals if his remit is to lump it long and wander out to give and take a couple of hand passes on our 45 line.
Not all doom and gloom though, put us in Croke Park and the extra space will remove the kind of advantage Donegal had yesterday. We have nobody to fear with a bit of momentum.
Kick er in
New Member
Can't help but feel the 1st two league victories over Dublin and Tyrone installed unrealistic expectations into Armagh Supporters. Armagh were a good 3 months ahead of both of these teams in their pre season and were far sharper and fitter which played a huge part in the 1st 2 wins. Eamonn Fitzmaurice made the point after these games on the Sunday game it would be interesting to see how Armagh done when other team caught up to them. We have won 1 out of the 6 games since that . (Kildare). That said it was imperative to stay in division 1 in our 1st full year in it for the team to continue to improve. Donegals shrewdness, match know how and experience really shown yesterday
Death, Taxes and Armagh letting you down in Ulster!!
Seriously, we are paying the three kierans 300k a year for that, to be totally out thought and out fought. Midfield was like seniors vs minors. Fair enough players have off days but i honestly think they havent got the stones for championship fball.
8 years
11 matches in ulster
Won 2
Drew 1
Lost 8
I for one am fed up.
Seriously, we are paying the three kierans 300k a year for that, to be totally out thought and out fought. Midfield was like seniors vs minors. Fair enough players have off days but i honestly think they havent got the stones for championship fball.
8 years
11 matches in ulster
Won 2
Drew 1
Lost 8
I for one am fed up.
Mickey Gormley
Active Member
Mickey Gormley
Active Member
Hard to know Donegal seem to have a knack of doing this to us. Breiffni was a wide open space and they ran through us there 2 years ago. Personally I think there better footballers than us. They do what we want to do but do it better. The only saving grace we have is that unlucky at times that purple patch at the start of the 2nd half could have changed the game for us and give us alot of momentum but sadly I think Duffy and Jemar were too light for this particular game and we made the subs a fraction too late... Regroup and go again
Mickey Gormley
Active Member
Injured
Patrick-Armagh
Well-Known Member
I think that with Ethan in goals in theory it comes down to being able to go longer with kick outs if teams push up and he's bigger in the goal. He caught a ball above the cross bar yesterday, which Blaine wouldn't have been able to do. I think ultimately that's what it comes down to.
Hard to know what to make of that. First thing I will say, the game may have been lost in Ballybofey but the seeds of defeat were sown in Letterkenny. The last few weeks for us have been about suspensions, appeals, CCCC, who’s in who’s out. Donegal focused on the football. We should have gone through the motions against them in the League but for whatever reason we didn’t. That was wrong and cost us and that’s on the management.
Yesterday we struggled all over the field at different times and we were beaten by a much better team. It was a 7 point hammering. We can point to the goal that wasn’t given and a few other things but the reality is Donegal were fitter, sharper, smarter and more clinical at crucial times. The game plan was absent and ability to readjust both on the line and on the field is not there. There are no leaders. People will say we are short of players etc etc and there’s no dispute in that but a lack of a game plan has nothing to do with luck of players.
It’s been mentioned above that maybe we got a false sense of where we were at because of a good start to the league. Let’s put in perspective about the league results. We beat Tyrone who were still playing n their post AI win break as it were. They will be in an Ulster Final I’d say and will give the whole thing a run again. We beat Dublin and Kildare who were both relegated and we drew with Monaghan at a struggle who had a man sent off. Monaghan were also within a kick of relegation. We peaked at that point of the season and have tapered off since. The question needs to be asked why?
We may have lost players and have players coming back from injury but that’s something every team has to deal with.
We were bullied in key areas, particularly the middle. We didn’t stand up to it. Maybe we couldn’t.
We now have the back door. A few good results and we could recalibrate but is that what is really needed? Personally I don’t believe so. I don’t believe we have progressed far enough over the last few years to warrant that but the reality is Div 1 survivable and a decent run in the Qualifiers will save the management their positions. A proper review needs to be done but I am not sure that there are people brave enough to do so.
Yesterday we struggled all over the field at different times and we were beaten by a much better team. It was a 7 point hammering. We can point to the goal that wasn’t given and a few other things but the reality is Donegal were fitter, sharper, smarter and more clinical at crucial times. The game plan was absent and ability to readjust both on the line and on the field is not there. There are no leaders. People will say we are short of players etc etc and there’s no dispute in that but a lack of a game plan has nothing to do with luck of players.
It’s been mentioned above that maybe we got a false sense of where we were at because of a good start to the league. Let’s put in perspective about the league results. We beat Tyrone who were still playing n their post AI win break as it were. They will be in an Ulster Final I’d say and will give the whole thing a run again. We beat Dublin and Kildare who were both relegated and we drew with Monaghan at a struggle who had a man sent off. Monaghan were also within a kick of relegation. We peaked at that point of the season and have tapered off since. The question needs to be asked why?
We may have lost players and have players coming back from injury but that’s something every team has to deal with.
We were bullied in key areas, particularly the middle. We didn’t stand up to it. Maybe we couldn’t.
We now have the back door. A few good results and we could recalibrate but is that what is really needed? Personally I don’t believe so. I don’t believe we have progressed far enough over the last few years to warrant that but the reality is Div 1 survivable and a decent run in the Qualifiers will save the management their positions. A proper review needs to be done but I am not sure that there are people brave enough to do so.
Patrick-Armagh
Well-Known Member
Has anyone seen any comment from McGeeney? Interested to hear what he had to say about that mess yesterday.
Armaghball
Well-Known Member
Where do you even start with that.
Firstly, the positives. Thought Ethan did reasonably well in goals, saved a point and was ok anytime he came out. Yes a few times he could have been quicker and should have stopped hitting his right wing when we were clearly getting cleaned on that side, but we seriously let him down out the field with lack of movement, failure to compete for high ball and being slower to the breaking ball. Donegal cute hoorism again moving the sidelines in to leave a tighter pitch, suited them perfectly and left it hard for us to work kickouts.
Forker did a reasonable job on Murphy but he definitely pulled up at one point in second half. Thought McKay again did ok on McBrearty in large parts. Morgan was decent carrying the ball out at times but ran into a few blind alleys.
McCabe did ok at getting stuck in, but we had no holding presence at chb and Donegal were allowed to stroll through untouched numerous times which was hugely disappointing. They probably could have had another 2 goals. Midfield, wing half backs and wing half forwards totally anonymous under kickouts and break ball. Ciaran Mackin was a huge loss here I thought, Crealey, Connaire and Niall Grimley never got going at all. Grugan I thought did rightly, but what was he at with that mark, very poor wide for a player of his ability. Duffy was poor, Rian totally anonymous but if his goal stands it's a different game. Turbitt done rightly but was isolated a lot at times. Soupy kicked a great point but was poor other than that, at one point he was tracking Murphy who'd been on for 50+ minutes and has hamstrings like an old man took off and left him for dust. Oisin O'Neill, McQuillan and Nugent all didnt do enough by their standards.
Usual ones on here who only seem to appear after defeats blaming management, don't think they are blameless but also can't blame them for lads missing easy shots, taking the wrong option or for lads not competing for break ball. Anyone who thinks we are going to change manager before the end of this season is either an idiot, a wind up merchant or both. One area I will criticise them on is the Donegal kickout in the first half. We let them have easy possession which is fair enough if you are going to set up to be hard to break down at the back, but we both didnt push up and press the kick and didn't drop back to defend our goal. In fairness this was corrected in the second half. One of the things I thought we did well in our purple patch at the start of second half was allowing them to get the short kickout and then surrounding the man in possession- we didnt force them to go long as they were dominant out the field, but we pressed the man who was uncomfortable on the ball and won a few turnovers. Unfortunately we didnt manage to turn this good play into enough scores. Probably will be questions as well on why we didn't do this from the start, maybe it would be too energy sapping to sustain for 70+ minutes.
Thought the ref was poor, totally agree with McConville that it is a joke he was able to disallow that goal from 65+metres away. Goal should have stood, it's bad when not one analyst can say why it was disallowed. If that stands, I think the game would have went level or left a point in it at that stage, totally different contest. Also thought there were a couple of very soft scorable frees Donegal got and we at times didn't get frees in the scoring zone that we could have. However the ref was least of our issues, we need to look at ourselves first and foremost and improve what we can improve before blaming anyone else.
Another positive is, bar Grugan, Forker and Morgan, all of our first 15 and a good few of the subs are very young and will only improve.
Anyway, another day of what ifs and regrets. All we can do now is dust ourselves off and go again, wherever the back door takes us. All I know is as frustrated as all of us are, no one will be hurting more than McGeeney and the lads, they've put in serious, serious commitment this year and every year and as always deserve praise for it. Well done to Donegal, better team on the day won out. Hopefully we'll meet again later in the year. Ard Mhacha Abu!!
Firstly, the positives. Thought Ethan did reasonably well in goals, saved a point and was ok anytime he came out. Yes a few times he could have been quicker and should have stopped hitting his right wing when we were clearly getting cleaned on that side, but we seriously let him down out the field with lack of movement, failure to compete for high ball and being slower to the breaking ball. Donegal cute hoorism again moving the sidelines in to leave a tighter pitch, suited them perfectly and left it hard for us to work kickouts.
Forker did a reasonable job on Murphy but he definitely pulled up at one point in second half. Thought McKay again did ok on McBrearty in large parts. Morgan was decent carrying the ball out at times but ran into a few blind alleys.
McCabe did ok at getting stuck in, but we had no holding presence at chb and Donegal were allowed to stroll through untouched numerous times which was hugely disappointing. They probably could have had another 2 goals. Midfield, wing half backs and wing half forwards totally anonymous under kickouts and break ball. Ciaran Mackin was a huge loss here I thought, Crealey, Connaire and Niall Grimley never got going at all. Grugan I thought did rightly, but what was he at with that mark, very poor wide for a player of his ability. Duffy was poor, Rian totally anonymous but if his goal stands it's a different game. Turbitt done rightly but was isolated a lot at times. Soupy kicked a great point but was poor other than that, at one point he was tracking Murphy who'd been on for 50+ minutes and has hamstrings like an old man took off and left him for dust. Oisin O'Neill, McQuillan and Nugent all didnt do enough by their standards.
Usual ones on here who only seem to appear after defeats blaming management, don't think they are blameless but also can't blame them for lads missing easy shots, taking the wrong option or for lads not competing for break ball. Anyone who thinks we are going to change manager before the end of this season is either an idiot, a wind up merchant or both. One area I will criticise them on is the Donegal kickout in the first half. We let them have easy possession which is fair enough if you are going to set up to be hard to break down at the back, but we both didnt push up and press the kick and didn't drop back to defend our goal. In fairness this was corrected in the second half. One of the things I thought we did well in our purple patch at the start of second half was allowing them to get the short kickout and then surrounding the man in possession- we didnt force them to go long as they were dominant out the field, but we pressed the man who was uncomfortable on the ball and won a few turnovers. Unfortunately we didnt manage to turn this good play into enough scores. Probably will be questions as well on why we didn't do this from the start, maybe it would be too energy sapping to sustain for 70+ minutes.
Thought the ref was poor, totally agree with McConville that it is a joke he was able to disallow that goal from 65+metres away. Goal should have stood, it's bad when not one analyst can say why it was disallowed. If that stands, I think the game would have went level or left a point in it at that stage, totally different contest. Also thought there were a couple of very soft scorable frees Donegal got and we at times didn't get frees in the scoring zone that we could have. However the ref was least of our issues, we need to look at ourselves first and foremost and improve what we can improve before blaming anyone else.
Another positive is, bar Grugan, Forker and Morgan, all of our first 15 and a good few of the subs are very young and will only improve.
Anyway, another day of what ifs and regrets. All we can do now is dust ourselves off and go again, wherever the back door takes us. All I know is as frustrated as all of us are, no one will be hurting more than McGeeney and the lads, they've put in serious, serious commitment this year and every year and as always deserve praise for it. Well done to Donegal, better team on the day won out. Hopefully we'll meet again later in the year. Ard Mhacha Abu!!