All Ireland Qualifiers

Armagh have reached the last 8 in The All Ireland series would you rather we play in

  • The Super 8 format

    Votes: 9 22.5%
  • Knock out Quarter Final

    Votes: 31 77.5%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .

armagh4sammy

New Member
Well lads, first time poster here. Have to say that's the best campaign we have had in a decade (league & championship) and I simply can't understand anyone calling for a change in management as a result.

It's already been mentioned, but was brilliant to see the two new lads Eoin woods and Justin Kieran and having a positive impact. Hopefully see more of them next year. Any other new young fellas to bring into the team? Mccambridge maybe?

I hope both management and entire squad stay on for at least another year. Soupy, grugan, morgan, shields and rowland all hitting past 30 now but still have a lot to give. An injury free Oisin O'Neill would take this team to another level - I think he can be just as good as his younger brother. Onwards and upwards. Already excited for the Mckenna cup.
 

Diarmi

Well-Known Member
I doubt the county board will get involve or release any statement of any kind before any disciplinary action is taken (which I assume there will be).

And to be honest I think that is the right stance. Deal with it internally and move on. The whole public image and social media side of I'm sorry (and might be harsh) but that ship has sailed the moment he did what he did
Disagree, he can still make amends for his actions and leave a positive reflection on himself. If he doesn't he will always be remembered for the incident whereas he has an opportunity to be remembered for how he reacted.
 

stevie_06

Well-Known Member
Disagree, he can still make amends for his actions and leave a positive reflection on himself. If he doesn't he will always be remembered for the incident whereas he has an opportunity to be remembered for how he reacted.
Always think the best way to do that is to put your head down and go out on the pitch with right attitude. Which I'm sure he will do over the next number of years.

Certainly by all means get involved with any coaching sessions or summer schools going on across our underage levels. But the point I was making that a press conference or public statement, to me serves no benefit at all.

Just puts him in the spotlight and opens him up to more abuse in my opinion.

Go about his business as usual within our county and start there. Because I am sure there are many an armagh fan who is (rightly so) extremely disappointed in his actions
 

Ed Ricketts

Active Member
I still feel drained after that, so can’t imagine what the players must feel like today.

Such an incredible rollercoaster of emotions over those two hours. In fact, the last four weeks or so have been a rollercoaster, from the doom and gloom in advance of the Tyrone game through to the colour and noise and expectation on Sunday. Such a shame, a disgrace really, that things ended with a penalty shootout. It’s unnatural, anti-climactic, perfunctory. It doesn’t belong in the GAA - I hope the rule makers realise this before any other county is disenfranchised.

The game in normal time was conventional enough. We started well and then faded. Galway were the better team overall, and had they run out 4 or 5 point winners it would have been merited. They are a very good team that has been coming for a while now. I can see them taking care of Derry, and running very close in an AI final.

I thought I could see some heavy legs out there on our side, and it’s maybe no coincidence that some of the older lads - Murnin, Forker, Grugan, - didn’t make it to the end of extra time. We’ve had a tougher road than Galway over the last month.

We also weren’t as clinical as them, I think the wide count at the end of normal time was something like 8-3 against us. Some of our shot selection was off at clutch moments - unfortunately this came back to haunt us at the death too. McCabe’s red didn’t help either - Galway hit four in a row after that and looked to have killed the game off. The red was harsh for me. There’s no malice there, it’s just a fractionally mistimed hit. Yellow would’ve done and no one would’ve complained.

Then that mad 8 or 9 minutes. First off, fair play to Coldrick for adding the time. Galway were at the fake head injury stuff all second half to kill time, so 8 minutes was the least that was justified. A stop clock is the solution to this messing. Both goals were scrappy, but they’re the type of goals you get when you want them enough. O’Neill’s free to tie it up was something else, but there was never a doubt he’d nail it.

Extra time is a blur to me. I’ll have to watch back when I have the stomach. I thought we had it at two stages - after the third goal, and after Hall’s point. It was always going to be tricky to hold on against an opponent like Galway, but maybe we could have done one or two things differently and held out. McDaid’s point to tie it up was exceptional, though.

The penalties are a nonsense and you couldn’t hold it against either of the two lads that missed for us. But if we ever find ourselves in the position again I’d hope that we can learn from yesterday. GAA keepers are not at the same shot stopping standard as top level soccer keepers. Just hit the target with enough power and you usually score in Gaelic football. This is what Galway managed, but a couple of our penalties looked to try to be too precise, too close to the top corner.

The row was bad. And we more than played our part in it. That’s three in 11 games this year involving us, we can’t keep crying that we’re just being picked on. In fact, in interviews afterwards, McGeeney more or less said that the lads have been encouraged to get on like this. To not take a step back, to get under the skin of the big boys and let them know you mean business. I get that this cocky upstart thing is an energy that the team feeds off, but for me it begins to become counterproductive after a time. In the short term we lose players and we lose focus. Longer term there is a loss of reputation, which kills you slowly as you find refs gunning for you more and more regularly. We need to clean ourselves up.

Tiernan Kelly in particular let himself down, and I’m sure he knows that. He should be contrite, take whatever punishment comes his way, and quietly go about working his way back into the team. He still has a fantastic football career ahead of him. It’s difficult to make excuses for something like that, but I suppose he is young and the blood was up in the moment. It looked like one of those things that takes a second to happen, but that you regret for much, much longer. The witch hunt online and in the media is pathetic though, a lot of sanctimonious gobshites that live for whinging about things. Luckily, the storm will move on to a different target by the middle of the week - hopefully TK keeps his head clear of the noise in the meantime.

I don’t know about others, but I’m already looking forward to 2023. The league gave a hint of it, but it’s the last three championship games that has confirmed it for me: we’re 100% back at the top table. Some serious work, and improvement, and momentum has come together over the last 18 months. Good young players have come through, and some stalwarts have elevated themselves to standards I didn’t think they had in them. The continuation of the management isn’t in any doubt, and hopefully Donaghy stays onboard too - the boys seem to feed off his enthusiasm.

I don’t think any players walk away just yet, and there’s maybe two more years in the likes of Grugan, Campbell & Forker. I can see Turbitt starting more regularly, and return for Oisin O’Neill, Kelly, and Grimley. It’ll also be great for squad depth to have lads like Paddy Burns, Niall Rowland, and the Mackins back to full fitness. Boys like Woods and Kieran came in yesterday and kicked on, and there’s others like McQuillen, McConville, McCambridge, and Higgins still to really break through. The year will also stand to men who have just only got going in settled positions on the field - Rafferty, Og Burns, Conor O’Neill, Crealey & Duffy.

The talent of 20 years ago might not quite be there, but there’s still a very strong and healthy mix. There’s also an energy and togetherness and spirit that has been fostered, and which could take them a long way. We have a team that plays great football with great heart, what more can you ask than that?

Long post, but sure its cathartic.
 

Reamonnt

Member
Hello folks from Galway.

I've been following this forum with interest pre the game and just wanted to add my tuppence on yesterdays match. It was a cracker that we really should have closed out but the absence of our full back and no.1 goalie is hurting us bad. I thought Armagh showed great heart and passion to come back and take it to extra time and ye had a chance to win it but Cillian really stepped up to fulfill his potential. The penalties are a mad way to decide a GAA match but I was so glad we came out the right side of a Croke Park clash for once. I think the win will really give us confidence to have a right go at Derry. I met a few groups of Armagh fans at the game and they were all very nice, great GAA people and really friendly but a few drunken youths can ruin it for everyone and Galway have them too. As for the melee there was a lot of tension there at the end of FT and really lads should be going to opposite ends. The alleged gouge crack was a moment of madness, your lad should just apologise to Damien and id say that would be the end of it unofficially but the suits might give him a fair ban. One of our subs appeared to give the lad that allegedly gouged a wild belt too so that really resolved it there and then. Stupid stuff indeed but it didnt take away from the match for me no matter what lads on Sunday Game or pateen said. Hope to see ye again in Croker next year.
 

William Of Orange

Well-Known Member
Hello folks from Galway.

I've been following this forum with interest pre the game and just wanted to add my tuppence on yesterdays match. It was a cracker that we really should have closed out but the absence of our full back and no.1 goalie is hurting us bad. I thought Armagh showed great heart and passion to come back and take it to extra time and ye had a chance to win it but Cillian really stepped up to fulfill his potential. The penalties are a mad way to decide a GAA match but I was so glad we came out the right side of a Croke Park clash for once. I think the win will really give us confidence to have a right go at Derry. I met a few groups of Armagh fans at the game and they were all very nice, great GAA people and really friendly but a few drunken youths can ruin it for everyone and Galway have them too. As for the melee there was a lot of tension there at the end of FT and really lads should be going to opposite ends. The alleged gouge crack was a moment of madness, your lad should just apologise to Damien and id say that would be the end of it unofficially but the suits might give him a fair ban. One of our subs appeared to give the lad that allegedly gouged a wild belt too so that really resolved it there and then. Stupid stuff indeed but it didnt take away from the match for me no matter what lads on Sunday Game or pateen said. Hope to see ye again in Croker next year.

Thanks for that Reamonnt and good luck to Galway for the rest of the season.
 

William Of Orange

Well-Known Member
I still feel drained after that, so can’t imagine what the players must feel like today.

Such an incredible rollercoaster of emotions over those two hours. In fact, the last four weeks or so have been a rollercoaster, from the doom and gloom in advance of the Tyrone game through to the colour and noise and expectation on Sunday. Such a shame, a disgrace really, that things ended with a penalty shootout. It’s unnatural, anti-climactic, perfunctory. It doesn’t belong in the GAA - I hope the rule makers realise this before any other county is disenfranchised.

The game in normal time was conventional enough. We started well and then faded. Galway were the better team overall, and had they run out 4 or 5 point winners it would have been merited. They are a very good team that has been coming for a while now. I can see them taking care of Derry, and running very close in an AI final.

I thought I could see some heavy legs out there on our side, and it’s maybe no coincidence that some of the older lads - Murnin, Forker, Grugan, - didn’t make it to the end of extra time. We’ve had a tougher road than Galway over the last month.

We also weren’t as clinical as them, I think the wide count at the end of normal time was something like 8-3 against us. Some of our shot selection was off at clutch moments - unfortunately this came back to haunt us at the death too. McCabe’s red didn’t help either - Galway hit four in a row after that and looked to have killed the game off. The red was harsh for me. There’s no malice there, it’s just a fractionally mistimed hit. Yellow would’ve done and no one would’ve complained.

Then that mad 8 or 9 minutes. First off, fair play to Coldrick for adding the time. Galway were at the fake head injury stuff all second half to kill time, so 8 minutes was the least that was justified. A stop clock is the solution to this messing. Both goals were scrappy, but they’re the type of goals you get when you want them enough. O’Neill’s free to tie it up was something else, but there was never a doubt he’d nail it.

Extra time is a blur to me. I’ll have to watch back when I have the stomach. I thought we had it at two stages - after the third goal, and after Hall’s point. It was always going to be tricky to hold on against an opponent like Galway, but maybe we could have done one or two things differently and held out. McDaid’s point to tie it up was exceptional, though.

The penalties are a nonsense and you couldn’t hold it against either of the two lads that missed for us. But if we ever find ourselves in the position again I’d hope that we can learn from yesterday. GAA keepers are not at the same shot stopping standard as top level soccer keepers. Just hit the target with enough power and you usually score in Gaelic football. This is what Galway managed, but a couple of our penalties looked to try to be too precise, too close to the top corner.

The row was bad. And we more than played our part in it. That’s three in 11 games this year involving us, we can’t keep crying that we’re just being picked on. In fact, in interviews afterwards, McGeeney more or less said that the lads have been encouraged to get on like this. To not take a step back, to get under the skin of the big boys and let them know you mean business. I get that this cocky upstart thing is an energy that the team feeds off, but for me it begins to become counterproductive after a time. In the short term we lose players and we lose focus. Longer term there is a loss of reputation, which kills you slowly as you find refs gunning for you more and more regularly. We need to clean ourselves up.

Tiernan Kelly in particular let himself down, and I’m sure he knows that. He should be contrite, take whatever punishment comes his way, and quietly go about working his way back into the team. He still has a fantastic football career ahead of him. It’s difficult to make excuses for something like that, but I suppose he is young and the blood was up in the moment. It looked like one of those things that takes a second to happen, but that you regret for much, much longer. The witch hunt online and in the media is pathetic though, a lot of sanctimonious gobshites that live for whinging about things. Luckily, the storm will move on to a different target by the middle of the week - hopefully TK keeps his head clear of the noise in the meantime.

I don’t know about others, but I’m already looking forward to 2023. The league gave a hint of it, but it’s the last three championship games that has confirmed it for me: we’re 100% back at the top table. Some serious work, and improvement, and momentum has come together over the last 18 months. Good young players have come through, and some stalwarts have elevated themselves to standards I didn’t think they had in them. The continuation of the management isn’t in any doubt, and hopefully Donaghy stays onboard too - the boys seem to feed off his enthusiasm.

I don’t think any players walk away just yet, and there’s maybe two more years in the likes of Grugan, Campbell & Forker. I can see Turbitt starting more regularly, and return for Oisin O’Neill, Kelly, and Grimley. It’ll also be great for squad depth to have lads like Paddy Burns, Niall Rowland, and the Mackins back to full fitness. Boys like Woods and Kieran came in yesterday and kicked on, and there’s others like McQuillen, McConville, McCambridge, and Higgins still to really break through. The year will also stand to men who have just only got going in settled positions on the field - Rafferty, Og Burns, Conor O’Neill, Crealey & Duffy.

The talent of 20 years ago might not quite be there, but there’s still a very strong and healthy mix. There’s also an energy and togetherness and spirit that has been fostered, and which could take them a long way. We have a team that plays great football with great heart, what more can you ask than that?

Long post, but sure its cathartic.
Excellent maiden post welcome Ed.
 

KilleavyGael

Active Member
I hope those kids that witnessed the unsavoury behaviour are ok. It’s not nice when it happens, but worse for wee kids to witness such antics. Unfortunately big games seems to bring out such people and such behaviour.

As people have said, maybe the McKenna/NFL is s better time to introduce kids to matches. It might freeze the hole off you, but the sunshine supporters will be nowhere to be seen. Plus, you’ll get a better seat.

On another note, maybe it’s just me being an old fart, but GAA games seem to have taken on a strange life of its own in terms of some who attend, and certain behaviour. Let me explain...

Maybe it’s social media, and the behaviour that that produces. And not just from kids/teenagers neither. I hear of people going to concerts even if they aren’t fans of the singer/band. The gig is hyped up and everyone else seems to be going. It’s the thing to be seen at. And share your experience on SM, to try and prove to people how exciting your social life is. This seems to be the case with the GAA now.

If you actually have a look around you, people are continually taking selfies or videos of themselves and their mates. It’s more noticeable when you watch highlights on TV. If there’s a score, fans are videoing their reaction and assumingly putting it on SM.

A few weeks ago, I (unfortunately) seen a clip of Hampsey lifting Sam last year. There was a bunch of people within a yard or two. While he was raising Sam, there’s a number of people videoing/selfie-ing themselves. Bear in mind, they are witnessing history here. Their team, their captain, winning the AI. Sam is being hoisted a yard from your face, and you are videoing yourself. I mean, wtf? What’s happening to the world?

Right, thats my old man rant over for today. I’m away to yell at a cloud...

Strongly agree with this. The world has changed since I was a young fella.

Will add my congratulations to the team for their spirit and effort. Hopefully we can keep it together for next year. I've made my point on here before that we lack a) the defensive discipline and b) the defenders to really crack into the top 3. To give them their dues, Morgan, McKay and Forker have been great and really cut out the rash stuff. Would like to see some new blood coming into the FB line though for next year, hopefully Geezer will be scouring the club championships to find someone.
 

Dickyknees

New Member
Strongly agree with this. The world has changed since I was a young fella.

Will add my congratulations to the team for their spirit and effort. Hopefully we can keep it together for next year. I've made my point on here before that we lack a) the defensive discipline and b) the defenders to really crack into the top 3. To give them their dues, Morgan, McKay and Forker have been great and really cut out the rash stuff. Would like to see some new blood coming into the FB line though for next year, hopefully Geezer will be scouring the club championships to find someone.
I see James Morgan and Ethan got on the Gaa team of the week delighted for both of them
 

Peter grimes

Well-Known Member
I am on the side that suggests that Kelly would be best advised to get out in front of this with an admission of guilt and remorse.

He is a lucky boy today and in time he will come to realise that. Things could have went very differently yesterday and he should be thankful they didn’t. Very easily there could have been a set of consequences for Comer that would have lead to different order of consequences for Kelly.

This is eye gouging. It will be dealt with sternly. As indeed it should be. Any idea of hanging back and waiting for guilt to be proven is to cede what little control we can have.

Fulsome apology and fulsome remorse. Anything less will backfire
 

Geezersleftfoot

Active Member
I hope those kids that witnessed the unsavoury behaviour are ok. It’s not nice when it happens, but worse for wee kids to witness such antics. Unfortunately big games seems to bring out such people and such behaviour.

As people have said, maybe the McKenna/NFL is s better time to introduce kids to matches. It might freeze the hole off you, but the sunshine supporters will be nowhere to be seen. Plus, you’ll get a better seat.

On another note, maybe it’s just me being an old fart, but GAA games seem to have taken on a strange life of its own in terms of some who attend, and certain behaviour. Let me explain...

Maybe it’s social media, and the behaviour that that produces. And not just from kids/teenagers neither. I hear of people going to concerts even if they aren’t fans of the singer/band. The gig is hyped up and everyone else seems to be going. It’s the thing to be seen at. And share your experience on SM, to try and prove to people how exciting your social life is. This seems to be the case with the GAA now.

If you actually have a look around you, people are continually taking selfies or videos of themselves and their mates. It’s more noticeable when you watch highlights on TV. If there’s a score, fans are videoing their reaction and assumingly putting it on SM.

A few weeks ago, I (unfortunately) seen a clip of Hampsey lifting Sam last year. There was a bunch of people within a yard or two. While he was raising Sam, there’s a number of people videoing/selfie-ing themselves. Bear in mind, they are witnessing history here. Their team, their captain, winning the AI. Sam is being hoisted a yard from your face, and you are videoing yourself. I mean, wtf? What’s happening to the world?

Right, thats my old man rant over for today. I’m away to yell at a cloud...
The lad has been to plenty of McKenna and league games. Club championship games. As I said, we introduce them early in our family.
 

Hoops

Member
I am on the side that suggests that Kelly would be best advised to get out in front of this with an admission of guilt and remorse.

He is a lucky boy today and in time he will come to realise that. Things could have went very differently yesterday and he should be thankful they didn’t. Very easily there could have been a set of consequences for Comer that would have lead to different order of consequences for Kelly.

This is eye gouging. It will be dealt with sternly. As indeed it should be. Any idea of hanging back and waiting for guilt to be proven is to cede what little control we can have.

Fulsome apology and fulsome remorse. Anything less will backfire
This would be very naïve and foolish and would basically hand him over to face the maximum suspension he can get. He'd be better to keep the head down and let it blow over. If they do something stupid with the suspension then Armagh should appeal and defend him as best they can, as other counties have done for their players in the past.
 

Diarmi

Well-Known Member
This would be very naïve and foolish and would basically hand him over to face the maximum suspension he can get. He'd be better to keep the head down and let it blow over. If they do something stupid with the suspension then Armagh should appeal and defend him as best they can, as other counties have done for their players in the past.
He doesn't need to come out and say I tried to blind the fella, just say that it was a rash action in a heated moment and that he is not happy with himself about it. Apologise and admit it was wrong. It will reflect well on him in the future.
 

Diarmi

Well-Known Member
Hello folks from Galway.

I've been following this forum with interest pre the game and just wanted to add my tuppence on yesterdays match. It was a cracker that we really should have closed out but the absence of our full back and no.1 goalie is hurting us bad. I thought Armagh showed great heart and passion to come back and take it to extra time and ye had a chance to win it but Cillian really stepped up to fulfill his potential. The penalties are a mad way to decide a GAA match but I was so glad we came out the right side of a Croke Park clash for once. I think the win will really give us confidence to have a right go at Derry. I met a few groups of Armagh fans at the game and they were all very nice, great GAA people and really friendly but a few drunken youths can ruin it for everyone and Galway have them too. As for the melee there was a lot of tension there at the end of FT and really lads should be going to opposite ends. The alleged gouge crack was a moment of madness, your lad should just apologise to Damien and id say that would be the end of it unofficially but the suits might give him a fair ban. One of our subs appeared to give the lad that allegedly gouged a wild belt too so that really resolved it there and then. Stupid stuff indeed but it didnt take away from the match for me no matter what lads on Sunday Game or pateen said. Hope to see ye again in Croker next year.
Thank you @Reamonnt, it means a lot. Sometimes I feel people talking on social media about Armagh people like we are monsters when we are just the same as every other county although most others don't have to deal with having their cars bricked by loyalists after the game. I wish you success in the rest of the championship and I think you have a decent chance.
 

ShiftYa

Well-Known Member
Disagree, he can still make amends for his actions and leave a positive reflection on himself. If he doesn't he will always be remembered for the incident whereas he has an opportunity to be remembered for how he reacted.
It will blow over, and people will forget, it’ll be similar to Steven Sheridan’s stamp on EBH a few years back.

Seemingly the two lads TK and DC had a bit of a history dating back to a challenge game played between Armagh and Galway in Westmeath a while back where a row had broken out that day too.
 

Peter grimes

Well-Known Member
This would be very naïve and foolish and would basically hand him over to face the maximum suspension he can get. He'd be better to keep the head down and let it blow over. If they do something stupid with the suspension then Armagh should appeal and defend him as best they can, as other counties have done for their players in the past.
All I can say is that I fundamentally disagree with on 2 fronts.

Tactically I think your own plan of action is much higher risk.

And then there is the point of principle. I can’t really identify the principle behind your plan of action.

This wait and see approach is fraught with danger. The case appears open and shut. The offence is grievous and the football sanction will be heavy. Kelly will be hoping that any sanction is confined to the football authorities and he will probably be lucky in that respect.

What has happened has happened. Kelly and the county board can only control this to a limited degree from here on. To essentially do nothing and hope on the outcome looks, to use your own expressions both foolish and naive.
 

MadOne86

Member
Must have been years since I posted on here but having attended the 3 Sam maguire series games this years all I can say is that they have been incredible and looking around I believe this Armagh side has created a new committed fan base as plenty of nay sayers (myself included at times) now is enthusiastic about this side and it’s potential.

Yesterday was easily the craziest atmosphere I’ve ever experienced at any sporting event. You’ll get it nowhere else on this planet and hope for more of this in years to come.

Now currently looking forward to buying my first ever season ticket for 2023!

Also was anyone like myself yesterday and had the sincere intention of staying for the Kerry-Mayo game but just had to step out for the first half and gather their thoughts as to what they had just witnessed?
 

stevie_06

Well-Known Member
All I can say is that I fundamentally disagree with on 2 fronts.

Tactically I think your own plan of action is much higher risk.

And then there is the point of principle. I can’t really identify the principle behind your plan of action.

This wait and see approach is fraught with danger. The case appears open and shut. The offence is grievous and the football sanction will be heavy. Kelly will be hoping that any sanction is confined to the football authorities and he will probably be lucky in that respect.

What has happened has happened. Kelly and the county board can only control this to a limited degree from here on. To essentially do nothing and hope on the outcome looks, to use your own expressions both foolish and naive.
Don't think anybody is suggesting play it out in hope that he isn't found guilty. There is no doubt about what he did.

Think it's just the public nature of it. What is the benefit of issuing public apology and or big public gesture.

He deserves a ban and will rightly get one. But we talk about not wanting a trial by media and then at same time calling for public press conference. Where is the logic in that

Deal with it privately. And I would be amazed if Comer hasn't already been personally contacted.
 

northarmaghgael

Active Member
Must have been years since I posted on here but having attended the 3 Sam maguire series games this years all I can say is that they have been incredible and looking around I believe this Armagh side has created a new committed fan base as plenty of nay sayers (myself included at times) now is enthusiastic about this side and it’s potential.

Yesterday was easily the craziest atmosphere I’ve ever experienced at any sporting event. You’ll get it nowhere else on this planet and hope for more of this in years to come.

Now currently looking forward to buying my first ever season ticket for 2023!

Also was anyone like myself yesterday and had the sincere intention of staying for the Kerry-Mayo game but just had to step out for the first half and gather their thoughts as to what they had just witnessed?

I thought I was the only one!! Only I didn’t step out, I was watching the Kerry-Mayo game but wasn’t taking it in, just sitting there in a daze. I was just completely emotionally drained, from thinking we were dead and buried to getting 2 goals in injury time, then rians point to bring it to extra time. On top of that, Grugan scores the goal that I thought the game was over and we had to hold out and of course they came down and scored a goal. Then for Halls point to be cancelled by Mcdaids point and then the penalties. All that in the space of a game of football and that’s not even mentioning the scuffle at the end of FT ..
 
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